Charging/starting question

[46hand]

I have yet to do the stator papers properly, because just yesterday I purchased a new battery. I went for a quick spin, came back and attempted to lower the idle. Long story short, I killed the battery due to a flub in attempting to start her back up. I noticed while I was trying to start it that the load side wires from the starter relay heated way up. Further, today, after charging the battery, there appeared to be smoke coming from the starter relay when turning her over. It had that "let the 'factory smoke' out" kind of smell, so I figure it's likely toast. But could these symptoms be indicative of bigger issues? Another clue- with fresh battery, turning over is slow for ~2 cycles (~1 Hz) then fast (~4-6 Hz).

 

[koolaid_kid]

First, if you let the magic smoke out, the relay is toast. Go to Lowes and get a garden tractor starter relay for ~$15 out the door (just bought one the other week for the GPz).
Second, you need to consider why the magic smoke left. Was it just a worn out relay? Certainly possible for a +25 year old piece of electro-mechanical equipment. Or is the starter drawing too much current? If you have access to a clamp ammeter, you can measure the current draw with the new relay. But you would need to be quick in order to prevent burning out the new relay.
No matter what, you let the magic smoke out, time to pretend the GS is a garden tractor.

 

[Redman]

Can you tell if heat / smoke is from the solenoid (relay) body itself or is it from the cable? You mentioned the cable on load side was previously getting hot. Maybe it is bad connection there that is causing the heat (and solenoid itself is okay).

You have jumper cables or some way to "jump" acrost the solenoid posts? If you do (and make good contact doing it) and the starter runs better then you know the solenoid is going bad.
Be specific enough to jump acraost the solenoids posts, and then also try jumping acroast the cables (any difference between the two would be the connections between cables and the posts).

To remove all doubt, take off the starter motor cover and jump straight from battery to the starter motor.

Tell us more what you find.

..And, yah, the starter starting slow then speeding up can be problem with starter motor itself.

.

 

[46hand]

Awesome. I will change the solenoid after work. Yes, I have a clamp ammeter, but what is considered proper current draw?

I will also definitely check how she does when jumped across the solenoid, and report back to y'all.

Another item- measuring across the relay while turning her over indicated nearly .5 V drop. I think that has a lot to do with the age of the device, but is, no doubt, a part of the problem.

 

[46hand]

Well that sucked!!!

Well that sucked!!!

If I didn't have a problem before, I sure as **** do now.

Cleaned contacts on the fuse box/r-r/solenoid panel, rebuilt fuse box, added dielectric grease, turned switch. Let LOTS of factory smoke out...

I think I may have miswired something

 

[Steve]

... I have a clamp ammeter, but what is considered proper current draw?

First of all, make sure it's a DC ammeter.

I have seen 60-80 amps on my bikes.

You have to read the meter carefully, if it's a digital meter. The draw fluctuates, and depending on the sample rate of the meter, the display will ALWAYS be changing. You have to read the numbers quickly, then average them out.

.

 

[Redman]

...
Yes, I have a clamp ammeter, but what is considered proper current draw?
....

Like Steve says, I think you will find that most clampon ampmeters are for AC (60HZ AC). Look and see, might find the AC symbol (~) there somewhere.

 

[Redman]

If I didn't have a problem before, I sure as **** do now.

Cleaned contacts on the fuse box/r-r/solenoid panel, rebuilt fuse box, added dielectric grease, turned switch. Let LOTS of factory smoke out...

I think I may have miswired something

Smoke from solenoid or smoke from wires?

And if from wire; is it from only one wire and only from a portion of a wire?
Reson I ask if only from a portion of a wire is this: THe current in a length of wire is the same the entire length of the wire, so if is just one end of the wire heating up (not the entire length heating up) then the problem is more likley a bad connection at that end of the wire.

OH, I am still thinking of your starter solenoid and starter cables.

Now, are you are you saying that you get smoke as soon as you turn on the switch (the ignition key switcvh I assume)?
TO narrow it down some, try pulling out the main fuse, the igntion, the head light fuse and the instrument fuse (and aux fuse if have anything on that.) Then turn on switch and see, then repalace the main and see, then the others one at a time.
If it smokes before put back any fuses; try disconnecting the R/R.

.

 

[Steve]

Like Steve says, I think you will find that most clampon ampmeters are for AC (60HZ AC). Look and see, might find the AC symbol (~) there somewhere.

Exactly why I mentioned that. I got a meter from Radio Shack because it also does DC amps.

Not only does it do AC/DC amps, the ranges are 40, 400 and 800.

That means there will be no problems measuring the starter current on your Peterbilt.

.

 

[46hand]

After looking over the wiring diagrams for about one and a half minutes, I think I know what I did, and am too embarrassed to mention what it may have been here. As for how I got there, I was putting it back together the way I thought it came apart, but I have clearly not done so. And judging by the smoke that emanated from a particular wire (the culprit bad connection, no less), the fault is a dead giveaway by its obvious ampacity. Add in the lack of overcurrent protection and the question become- "How catastrophic is the damage to the electrical system?" This has the potential to be the deal-breaker, sadly enough. This, despite an investment into the purchase/renovation of the bike of well over its value.

 

[Steve]

Sorry, you will have to give us a better clue as to what you did before we can evaluate how catastrophic it might be.

.

 

[tom203]

After looking over the wiring diagrams for about one and a half minutes, I think I know what I did, and am too embarrassed to mention what it may have been here. As for how I got there, I was putting it back together the way I thought it came apart, but I have clearly not done so. And judging by the smoke that emanated from a particular wire (the culprit bad connection, no less), the fault is a dead giveaway by its obvious ampacity. Add in the lack of overcurrent protection and the question become- "How catastrophic is the damage to the electrical system?" This has the potential to be the deal-breaker, sadly enough. This, despite an investment into the purchase/renovation of the bike of well over its value.

Look on the bright side- at least it didn't burst into flames on your brief spin! You probably just fried your solenoid and maybe your battery- chock it up to experience, and, in the future, review wiring hookups before turning the key on.

 

[46hand]

So I've decided to fully tear into the starting/charging system. This means new info!
First of all, the misplaced wire? A 16 gauge ground lead landed to the negative side of the solenoid. I believe this was meant to land to the mounting post.
Other problem!! The slightest tug on the (6 gauge?) negative battery lead resulted in me holding a ten inch length of wire. THAT is, in my best guess, the source of (seemingly) innumerable other problems. So, to fix it, where am I supposed to land it? I removed the airbox but cannot find the proper termination.
Additional info- This may have been caused by the lack of a solid ground to the negative post (there is a supplemental ground someone added), but the connectors on two of the legs off the r-r were unserviceable due to the insulation being, more or less, melted... I crimped on new connectors to the alternator side.
A couple questions on some measurements I took-

On the removed r-r, if I go between red and the different legs of the rectifier, should I not get continuity in one direction? I do not have a diode tester readily available, but I'm sure my trusty Fluke is putting more than 0.7 V out to cause the diode to conduct.

Also, when measuring between the different legs of the alternator, I am getting 0.0 ohms. Shouldn't I be reading even a little bit of impedance due to inductive reactance (X(L))?

And, to answer a previous question, it turns out that my clamp ammeter is, indeed, AC only...

 

[posplayr]

So I've decided to fully tear into the starting/charging system. This means new info!
First of all, the misplaced wire? A 16 gauge ground lead landed to the negative side of the solenoid. I believe this was meant to land to the mounting post.
Other problem!! The slightest tug on the (6 gauge?) negative battery lead resulted in me holding a ten inch length of wire. THAT is, in my best guess, the source of (seemingly) innumerable other problems. So, to fix it, where am I supposed to land it? I removed the airbox but cannot find the proper termination.
Additional info- This may have been caused by the lack of a solid ground to the negative post (there is a supplemental ground someone added), but the connectors on two of the legs off the r-r were unserviceable due to the insulation being, more or less, melted... I crimped on new connectors to the alternator side.
A couple questions on some measurements I took-

On the removed r-r, if I go between red and the different legs of the rectifier, should I not get continuity in one direction? I do not have a diode tester readily available, but I'm sure my trusty Fluke is putting more than 0.7 V out to cause the diode to conduct.

Also, when measuring between the different legs of the alternator, I am getting 0.0 ohms. Shouldn't I be reading even a little bit of impedance due to inductive reactance (X(L))?

And, to answer a previous question, it turns out that my clamp ammeter is, indeed, AC only...

See GS charging system heath in my signature; it will probably help you along.

 

[46hand]

posplayer,
Thanks for pointing me there. So, I can move the harness ground to a post on the r-r mount, and I can also take the battery negative to the same place. Will do.

Re: the r-r diode checks I asked about, as well alternator checks, do those numbers say anything about what I have going on? I am not sure whether I'll be able to run it, or maybe I just need to reland all my connections and try to start her up again?

Thanks for all the help.

 

[posplayr]

posplayer,
Thanks for pointing me there. So, I can move the harness ground to a post on the r-r mount, and I can also take the battery negative to the same place. Will do.

Re: the r-r diode checks I asked about, as well alternator checks, do those numbers say anything about what I have going on? I am not sure whether I'll be able to run it, or maybe I just need to reland all my connections and try to start her up again?

Thanks for all the help.

All current sourced by the R/R(+) has to come back to the R/R(-) so

• battery (charging current return)
• frame (frame returns like blinkers)
• and B/W (harness)

all need to get to R/R(-).

Get everything wired as it should and do a Quick_Test to see where you are. Then it it looks OK dive into the detailed Phase A part of the revised stator pages.

 

[46hand]

Okay. So I brought the harness grounds and the r-r ground to the r-r mount, but left the battery (-) at the original termination (on the block) (after I found it finally). I tried to turn her over with the newer solenoid, got contact and she krunk. Then she didn't. I changed to yet another new solenoid, only to find she wouldn't crank. However, I heard clicking... I decided, somewhat (somewhat) randomly, to remove aux fuses, like the headlamp fuse or signals. CRAZY! Upon removal of the headlamp fuse, I got the proper voltage across my solenoid and it cranked like it was '81!! Came in to post, saw the last reply to this thread, and decided to move the (-) battery termination to the r-r. Now it cranks slowly, plus I saw smoke come out of my instrument cluster.

WTF?!?!!?? Any hints/ clues would surely be appreciated. I had to call it a night after all that, but I'll be back at it tomorrow afternoon.

 

[posplayr]

I hope you are not moving the primary ground from battery (-) to engine. This is to battery current return when cranking the starter.

smoke is bad ; recheck your connections and use an ohm meter to look for shorts. ray:

 

[46hand]

Done it!!

Done it!!

So I relanded the negative battery cable to its original termination, and with a charged battery turned her over without lamp/signal fuses, with success (no smoke!!). Checked all my voltages with her off, then tried to go ahead and start her up. Did the quick check and passed, took her out for 5 miles and fueled up, came back and did the quick check again and passed. So I'm like, "Let's do this!!!", so I went on an exhilarating 45 mile shakedown cruise. Came back, checked everything, and we are done here!

Thanks so much!!!

 

[posplayr]

So I relanded the negative battery cable to its original termination, and with a charged battery turned her over without lamp/signal fuses, with success (no smoke!!). Checked all my voltages with her off, then tried to go ahead and start her up. Did the quick check and passed, took her out for 5 miles and fueled up, came back and did the quick check again and passed. So I'm like, "Let's do this!!!", so I went on an exhilarating 45 mile shakedown cruise. Came back, checked everything, and we are done here!

Thanks so much!!!

quick test is not a final test ; I guess it is better than crying in your beer