Charging System Puzzle, I have tried everything> Help!

[Anonymous]

History:
Installed new Electrix Stator and RR several years ago. Last fall, charge rate fell off a volt or so and Batt. started to run down.
This is the thread from last fall:
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/viewtopic.php?t=25644&highlight=rr

Present:
I bought a SH232-12 from a running, charging, 81 Hon. CX500 (11,000 miles)

Before installing I bench tested the 2 original Suzuki RR and the Hon RR and the Electrix RR. Using this test that someone from this site provided:

(You can check you regulator/rectifier by following the Suzuki procedure below.

With the r/r removed from the bike, fins pointing up and terminals facing you, the terminals from left to right will be A, B, C, D, and E.
Negative probe on A and positive on B you should get 6-7.5 ohms.
Negative probe on A and positive on C you should get 6-7.5 ohms.
Negative probe on A and positive on D you should get 6-7.5 ohms.
Negative probe on A and positive on E you should get 50-70 ohms.

Then switch the negative probe to terminal B and place the positive probe on A, C, then D, you should get no reading. Positive on E should read 6-7.5 ohms.

Switch negative probe to C and positive to A, B, then D, you should get no reading. Positive on E should read 6-7.5 ohms.

Switch negative probe to D and positive to A, B, then C, you should get no reading. Positive on E should read 6-7.5 ohms.

Switch negative probe to E, positive to A, B, C, and D should give no reading.

Hope you can follow what I am outlining here.
_________________
70% '85 GS700EF/30% GSX-R)

Results: The Honda SH232 and the Electrix RR passed all the tests.
The 2 Suz. RRs passed the top section of tests but failed the lower section.

I also ran the complete series of the stator papers tests. The results were not as clear as the Suz RR test. But the Hon and Electrix tested constantly with each other. And all the connectivity tests were positive.

All the stator tests were positive. The 3 legs of the stator were 80V - 83V- 86V. I am not sure if that is close enough to being equal or not?

So.. I installed the Hon RR as per the directions garnered from this site.
Starting with a new fully charged battery: 13.36 volts
I get:
12.36 v @ 800 RPM
12.44 v @ 2500 RPM
12.52 v @ 5000 RPM.

When I pull the top fuse and run without the headlight:
12.55 v @ 800 RPM
14v @ 2500 RPM
15.3 v @ 5000 RPM.

I also have the RR green negative run straight to the- battery -.
And the RR Red positive straight to the battery + positive.

Help, I have run out of ideas. I don't know where else to look.
Please bounce some possibilites of what I might be missing here. And how I can confirm same.
Thanks !!
Charlie

 

[Anonymous]

I'm going by memory here, but I think one leg of the stator is wired into the ignition switch connector (it goes to one of the connectors up front, maybe not ignition). Anyway, it takes a rediculous path. I would eliminate that and hard wire it to the regulator. The connectors can play a signifiant part in your toubles. Check every one of them in the path.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Swanny,
I do have the 3 legs of the stator hard wired directly to the RR. As well as the ground and positive RR leads ran directly to the Batt.
Still stumped
Charlie

 

[argonsagas]

Since you have full voltage when running without the headlight, it appears that item is causing you some problems. Most likely source of difficulty is either a very poor connector in the circuit or, more likely, a poor ground for the headlight, causing additional resistance, and thus additional draw to keep it on. Of course, it could be both.

 

[Anonymous]

Since you have full voltage when running without the headlight, it appears that item is causing you some problems. Most likely source of difficulty is either a very poor connector in the circuit or, more likely, a poor ground for the headlight, causing additional resistance, and thus additional draw to keep it on. Of course, it could be both.

The headlight circuit seems to be the problem all right. I'd disconnect various loads in that circuit to see what affect they have. For instance, if you disconnect the headlight, is the problem still there. You are getting a current draw some where that is excessive. Try to isolate it.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you both for your responce:

Since my last post. I removed the Neg battery strap from the engine case, wirebushed and filed to shiny clean. Re- installed with dielectric grease. Like wise all the wires and connections from the Stator and RR.

Running with out the headlight I do get better readings.

I pulled the headlight bulb (80-100 watt). And hooked up a Hella Fog light straight to the Battery. Still had the same lower readings.

If I pull the top fuse. Which cuts all lights. The charging is great.

As I have a Windjammer, bags and trunk. All with lights. Some of which I installed. I guess I will see if I can start tracking down the excess current draw. If that indeed is the problem. I do realize that I have more lights than stock. But the Electrical system did fine till this most recent go around.

BTW. The headlight beam is rock solid. It does not change from Idle to WOT.

Well it got dark and I had to give up for tonight. Here's hoping that I can track down the problem. But as usuall, just when I think I might have a sliver of hope. It will probably go poof. And I will be back to the drawing board.

Charlie

 

[Anonymous]

It's all comming out now. :lol:

You have an excess current draw there somewhere. Keep pulling bulbs or loads. A bad ground or connector will add resistance to the circuit and reduce the current draw. I sounds like you either have too many loads hooked up or a partial short somewhere (which is rare).

If you have lights all over the trunk and bags they may be causing a problem. If that is the case, go to leds where you want lights. I'd start there and disconnect them all.

 

[earlfor]

Your stator voltages are fine. Wiring the R/R DC red positive output directly to battery positive and the R/R DC black negative directly to battery negative is how I have been doing it for years. The stator's 3 AC output legs should be wired directly to the three AC yellow input wires on the R/R. The DC voltage test is to be done at the battery terminals with the engine at 5000rpm and the headlight on high beam. Voltage should be 14.7 to 14.8 at that rpm.
Increasing rpm will normally show a momentary spike in the voltage with a quick resumption of the normal 14.7 to 14.8. Voltage should never hold at greater than 14.9 regardless of rpm. This is all with the headlight on high beam. On low beam, draw is decreased and more current will be shunted to ground and charge rate will decrease. that I know of, there is no text charge rate specified for low beam. On average, it will likely be somewhere in the low 13 volt range. It appears that depending on gate values and shunting, there is quite a bit of variance between different R/R's in this area. As long as you are in specs on the high beam and rpm settings and getting at least 13 volts on low, I would not worry about it.

Earl
P.S. You stator should produce about 20 amps max at 5K rpm. If you have load greater than that or close enough to that so as to not leave sufficient average charging capacity at reduced rpms and charge rates, you would have a battery maintenance problem, but not a charging system problem. If the system has always worked satisfactorily (with the 80/100 headlight), I would suspect corroded connections or corrosion inside the fuse box.

 

[Anonymous]

It's all comming out now. :lol:

You have an excess current draw there somewhere. Keep pulling bulbs or loads. A bad ground or connector will add resistance to the circuit and reduce the current draw. I sounds like you either have too many loads hooked up or a partial short somewhere (which is rare).

If you have lights all over the trunk and bags they may be causing a problem. If that is the case, go to leds where you want lights. I'd start there and disconnect them all.

Thanks Swanny,

I wonder if the fact that all my lights run through that one fuse, might not be good?

Great idea on the LED's. I actually just have 2 extra tail/ stop lights and 2 extra turn signal lights. But seeing that the tail lights are the only thing burning full time, I did not know if they would be that much more of a load. But yea, I will run LED's anywhere I can. I don't really know much about them. Is there any such thing as a LED headlight? I am running a 80/100 now. But as I can't see all that well anyway. I hate to go back to the old style.

Anyway, I will do as you suggest and try pulling bulbs or loads and see what I come up with. Of course it did help when I tried that. But I need those lights to see.

Thanks again for the ideas!
Charlie

 

[Anonymous]

The DC voltage test is to be done at the battery terminals with the engine at 5000rpm and the headlight on high beam. Voltage should be 14.7 to 14.8 at that rpm.
Increasing rpm will normally show a momentary spike in the voltage with a quick resumption of the normal 14.7 to 14.8. Voltage should never hold at greater than 14.9 regardless of rpm. This is all with the headlight on high beam. On low beam, draw is decreased and more current will be shunted to ground and charge rate will decrease. Earl

Thanks Earl!
I do have it wired exactly as you stated. Actually used you knowledge and instruction to do it.

" On low beam, draw is decreased and more current will be shunted to ground and charge rate will decrease"

Now that is where mine is not following suit.

The more load: the less charge rate. Or am I not stating that correctly.

i.e. with every load I remove, my battery voltage reading increases.
With each addtional load I add the battery voltage reading decreases.

So I guess my next move is to try to see if I have excess current draw somewhere.

Did you solve the charging puzzel you posted about a week or so ago?

Any other hints or tips?
Thanks,
Charlie

 

[earlfor]

Yep, I found my charging problem on the 1100. I had internal corrosion on the 9 pin connectors inside the headlight shell. There was not any reasonable way to clean them up, so I made a new wiring harness for the front half of the bike. LOL All is well now.



(with every load I remove, my battery voltage reading increases.
With each addtional load I add the battery voltage reading decreases.)
*************
Is it increasing at 5k rpm? At lower rpm, you dont have capacity to cover draw, so decreasing draw will increase voltage. But, at max charge rate, that should not happen. (if we assume you are not trying to power 30 amps of appliances with 20 amps of output ) As a starting point and to determine if it is a wiring probelm, a corrosion problem or a load problem, *We Need To Know What We Have At Baseline*. That is 5Krpm, ignition draw plus headlight on high beam. If draw does not exceed capacity, then charge rate will remain constant for that rpm and excess will be shunted.

If that is correct, then we can look to devices and circuits because the problem is not with the charging system.




quote............
So I guess my next move is to try to see if I have excess current draw somewhere.

Did you solve the charging puzzel you posted about a week or so ago?

Any other hints or tips?
Thanks,
Charlie[/quote]

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Earl,
Glad to hear you found the problem on your GS.

No I don't believe the voltage increases at/after 5K.

With out lights hooked up . I think it might have reached 15.3 for a moment and settled in at 14.8

With all lights and loads burning. It tops out at 12.52 @5000 rpm.

So.. I guess we need to look at devices and circuits.

It had the windjammer on when I bought it. And I have always feared dwelving into that mass of wiring stuffed into the black bag where the original headlight used to reside.

To be totally honest. I fear all wiring problems. I just try to keep all I have worked on clean and well connected.

And dare not step into circuits unknown.

Thanks again,
I will report back with progress or the lack there of.
Charlie

 

[earlfor]

Charlie, I'm not trying to be difficult, but you're not telling me what I need to know. "I dont believe the voltage increases" or "I think it might have" doesnt give me anything to work with. Would you please put a multimeter on the battery with nothing other than the headlight and ignition powered and the high beam on and tell me what voltage you have at 5krpm? I have no idea where to go without knowing exactly whay you have to start with.

Earl

Thanks Earl,
Glad to hear you found the problem on your GS.

No I don't believe the voltage increases at/after 5K.

With out lights hooked up . I think it might have reached 15.3 for a moment and settled in at 14.8

With all lights and loads burning. It tops out at 12.52 @5000 rpm.

So.. I guess we need to look at devices and circuits.

It had the windjammer on when I bought it. And I have always feared dwelving into that mass of wiring stuffed into the black bag where the original headlight used to reside.

To be totally honest. I fear all wiring problems. I just try to keep all I have worked on clean and well connected.

And dare not step into circuits unknown.

Thanks again,
I will report back with progress or the lack there of.
Charlie

 

[Anonymous]

Would you please put a multimeter on the battery with nothing other than the headlight and ignition powered and the high beam on and tell me what voltage you have at 5krpm? Earl

Earl,
Sorry if I was not clear.
12.5 v. as you described above:

14.9 with out the headlight and just the ignition.

--------------------------------------

Now upon further investigation:
If I unhook everthing except the ignition. And hook up 1 fog light directly to the battery ( no I DO NOT run a fog light on my bike).

I still get 12.5v. at 5K.

Which lead me to believe perhaps the over-draw is in ignition ciruit?

So I pulled the winjammer. Checked all connections in the "wire bag"
Everything was tip top except for 1 connection. There was some slight melt
on the connector to the red wire going into the ignition switch.

Looking at my manual this red wire appears to run to the 15 amp. fuse which I assume is the main ignition key circuit? As when I pull the fuse everything on the bike is dead.

Anyway I hard wired the red wire around the connector. But it did not improve the charging problem. So I am guessing there is still some high resistance some where in the ignition circuit and the melted connector was a sign of that. I also felt the afor mentioned 15 Amp fuse and it was warm and the other fuses cold.

So any ideas of how I can prove or disprove this theory? Or track down where the high resitance might be?

If all this makes no sence at all. Please forgive me and go back to the answer to your question and we can start from there.

Thanks,
Charlie

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

Have you checked or bypassed the ign switch

 

[Anonymous]

Have you checked or bypassed the ign switch

Thanks,
I don't know how to check it. I was thinking about trying to bypass it. From looking at the wiring diagram. It looks like if I hook the red wire to the orange wire it would bypass the ignition. But I don't really no if I am understanding the Igniton switch diagram correctly.
Any suggestion as how do check or bypass??

Thanks!!
Charlie

 

[earlfor]

Charley, if you have nothing on except the ignition and the headlight high beam at 5k rpm and you have 12.5 volts at your battery terminals, you have a faulty R/R. It would not matter if there is corrosion in any of the other circuits because there is no load on any of the other circuits since nothing is on.

Earl

Would you please put a multimeter on the battery with nothing other than the headlight and ignition powered and the high beam on and tell me what voltage you have at 5krpm? Earl

Earl,
Sorry if I was not clear.
12.5 v. as you described above:

14.9 with out the headlight and just the ignition.

--------------------------------------

Now upon further investigation:
If I unhook everthing except the ignition. And hook up 1 fog light directly to the battery ( no I DO NOT run a fog light on my bike).

I still get 12.5v. at 5K.

Which lead me to believe perhaps the over-draw is in ignition ciruit?

So I pulled the winjammer. Checked all connections in the "wire bag"
Everything was tip top except for 1 connection. There was some slight melt
on the connector to the red wire going into the ignition switch.

Looking at my manual this red wire appears to run to the 15 amp. fuse which I assume is the main ignition key circuit? As when I pull the fuse everything on the bike is dead.

Anyway I hard wired the red wire around the connector. But it did not improve the charging problem. So I am guessing there is still some high resistance some where in the ignition circuit and the melted connector was a sign of that. I also felt the afor mentioned 15 Amp fuse and it was warm and the other fuses cold.

So any ideas of how I can prove or disprove this theory? Or track down where the high resitance might be?

If all this makes no sence at all. Please forgive me and go back to the answer to your question and we can start from there.

Thanks,
Charlie

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Earl,
Actually I did not state it correctly. As the tail lights were still on. Once I figure out how to disconect those, I will post back.

Just strange that both the Hon RR and the Electrix RR passed all the Suzuki tests that Billy Ricks had posted some time ago.

Oh well,
I am kind of at a loss here. I really don't want to go thru buying another RR and that not be the problem. (again)

Bummer,
Thanks,
Charlie

 

[Don Lobacz]

Even a few running lights can drag your voltage down to the lower part of the acceptable range. Isn't your headlight wattage also a little higher than stock?
What coils are you running? I worked on a bike that had a huge voltage loss and finally concluded that it was the Accel coils. They were replaced with Dyna 3.0 ohm coils and charging was fine.

 

[Anonymous]

Even a few running lights can drag your voltage down to the lower part of the acceptable range. Isn't your headlight wattage also a little higher than stock?
What coils are you running? I worked on a bike that had a huge voltage loss and finally concluded that it was the Accel coils. They were replaced with Dyna 3.0 ohm coils and charging was fine.

Yes,
I am running 80/100. But never had a problem in the past. Until this go around. And I am running pretty recent Dana coils. That were installed by a local motorcycle shop. I guess I will examine that wiring again.

So if the voltage loss you encountered was with the coils. Is it still possible that my votage drop is somehow in the ignition system circuit?

I can't seem to pin it down to the lights yet. But I really want to exhaust all possibilites before going with a new RR. It is just strange that I get exactly the same readings with the Hon and Electrix RR's. And they are completely in spec with out the addtional load of the headlight.

I am a total novice and a bit out in left field when it comes to this electrical stuff. But I do undersatnd a bit more with every problem I encounter and discuss. So I guess I can at least concider this a good education. Of course I really would like to get back to riding my bike instaed of working on it.
Thanks for the help.
Charlie