Charging system question/issue

[earlfor]

Agreed. Dont do it. If you need to jump from a car, do it without the car running and everything will be fine.

E.

Jumping a motorcycle from a running car seems to be the cause of about 80% of the electrical problems we diagnosis and fix at the shop where I work. I wouldnt do it.

 

[earlfor]

Hmmmm, I would have to say yes, but only in some ways.

Earl

But I am certain that automotive and cycle electrical systems are compatable.

 

[Anonymous]

The 6 amps for the headlight and 3 amps for the bad connection totalling 9 amps is wrong. Think of it as 2 ohms for the light and 1 ohm for the bad connection. The total of 3 ohms will result in a reduced current flow in total considering that the origanal resistance was only 2 ohms.

 

[earlfor]

OK, that makes sense. So why does reducing flow cause the wire to melt?

Edit............strike that question. It was late last night and I was obviously running on about 2 out of 4 cylinders.

Earl

The 6 amps for the headlight and 3 amps for the bad connection totalling 9 amps is wrong. Think of it as 2 ohms for the light and 1 ohm for the bad connection. The total of 3 ohms will result in a reduced current flow in total considering that the origanal resistance was only 2 ohms.

 

[Anonymous]

It isnt the reduction of flow that melts the wire it is the bad connection alone. Even if there is reduced fow, it is still enough eventually to cause heat at the point of resistance. Think of the amount of heat given off by the bulb. It is designed to do this. The bad connection has trouble radiating its heat especially as the insulation acts as a thermal insulator.

 

[earlfor]

I think we have finally come round robin to agreement.

Earl

It isnt the reduction of flow that melts the wire it is the bad connection alone. Even if there is reduced fow, it is still enough eventually to cause heat at the point of resistance. Think of the amount of heat given off by the bulb. It is designed to do this. The bad connection has trouble radiating its heat especially as the insulation acts as a thermal insulator.

 

[Anonymous]

Alright, so did I screw things up using the charger on not? You guys seem to know your stuff pretty well, compared to myself whom admit am really in the dark regarding this stuff.

Everything from the wiring to the the stator, the regulator/rectifier, to the battery has been mentioned as being my problem. I know you guys, even knowing as much as you do, can't be expected to just diagnose my bike in an online forum, but all the help I can get is useful. With all that I have mentioned, is there any kind of a concensus on what my problem most likely is?

Thanks for all the replies, the help is appreciated!

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks, 3phase. Regarding damage to cycle charging systems from jumping, it isn't due to too much amperage. But it sounds like experience suggests not to do it, so I'll defer on that point. Although... why were they jumping in the first place? Electrical problems? Maybe a self selecting sample? Anyhow, OP, a bad connection anywhere in the charging/battery circuit will cause a voltage drop that will make the lights go dim, blinkers not blink, the coils go weak, etc., and there will be heat at the point of the bad connection. The same symptoms will happen if the charging system is not working, but if you charge the battery on a charger, they will disappear for awhile, then come back. If that helps at all.

 

[earlfor]

OK, lets first try to isolate the cause, then we can work on how to fix it.
You may have shorted your new battery by overcharging. I would disconnect the battery from the bike and charge it at a 2 amp rate (the lowest on a charger usually) and check the battery voltage with a meter every hour or so until the battery shows 13 volts. Then disconnect the charger from the battery and let it sit for 12 hours or so still not connected to the bike. Check the battery voltage. If the battery is still showing that its holding a charge greater than 12.8 or so, then it is probably ok.

Then reconnect the battery to the bike wiring harness. As you said, the red wire on your regulator/rectifier is hot, so I suspect your R/R is history.
However, the first check you need to do is the stator. Oftentimes, a faulty R/R will fry the stator also. Your stator is 3 phase and should produce 80 volts AC at an engine rpm of 5000. Three wires on your R/R will be from the stator. Those three wires are normally yellow. There should be 5 wires in total on your R/R. Black is 12 volts negative and goes to battery negative. Red is 12 volts positive and connects to battery positive. The 3 yellow (or remaining three wires if they are different colors than yellow) are AC input to the R/R.

To check the stator, disconnect the three yellow wires from the R/R. Set your multimeter to the AC 200 scale . You said you were not familiar with the meter, so the scale should be located at about 2 oclock on your dial and be noted ACV. If we number the three now disconnected stator wire 1,2 and 3, you want to connect your meter probes between 1 and 2 and run the bike to 5K rpm. that phase is good if it reads around 80 volts at that rpm. Next, connect the meter leads between wire 2 and 3, run bike to 5k and you should see 80 volts on that phase. finally, connect the leads between wire 1 and 3 and at 5K rpm you should see 80 volts there also. If all three phases show voltages above 70 volts, your stator output is within limits. 80 volts on each phase is factory spec.

If your stator checks OK, then reconnect the stator to the R/R. Set your meter to the DCV scale 20. Connect the red meter lead to the battery positive and the black meter lead to the battery negative. Run the bike to 5K rpm. The voltage at your battery terminals should peak between 14.3 and 14.8 volts. It should not rise above 14.9 volts regardless of any rpm increase. If voltage is below 14.3 or above 14.9 at 5K rpm, then your R/R is faulty.

Also, tighten the wire connection to your starter and check the battery ground wire between your negative terminal and the top of the transmission where it is bolted down. Make sure both are clean and tight.

Lemme know what you get and we can go from there.

Earl

Alright, so did I screw things up using the charger on not? You guys seem to know your stuff pretty well, compared to myself whom admit am really in the dark regarding this stuff.

Everything from the wiring to the the stator, the regulator/rectifier, to the battery has been mentioned as being my problem. I know you guys, even knowing as much as you do, can't be expected to just diagnose my bike in an online forum, but all the help I can get is useful. With all that I have mentioned, is there any kind of a concensus on what my problem most likely is?

Thanks for all the replies, the help is appreciated!

 

[Anonymous]

Excellant! Steps an idiot like me can understand. I will follow those steps this weekend. I have already tightened the wire at the starter and the ground at the trans is also good, I checked that the other day as you had instructed.

Thanks to all of you for help, I'll get back with the results.

 

[earlfor]

We'll get ya fixed. Its just going to take a little hunting and pecking.

Earl

Excellant! Steps an idiot like me can understand. I will follow those steps this weekend. I have already tightened the wire at the starter and the ground at the trans is also good, I checked that the other day as you had instructed.

Thanks to all of you for help, I'll get back with the results.

 

[Anonymous]

Back agian. earlfor, I performed the tests you had outlined for me and I believe you are correct that the R/R is toast. I hooked the battery to the charger and charge it to 13 volts. I didn't have to wait long before it fell below 12.8, it did this in less than 15 minutes, icould see it going down like a clock doing a count down..

I then bought a new battery, started the bike and tested at the battery while the bike was at 5000 rpms. It measured around 12.85 or so. The longer I let it run at 5000 rpms the more it went up, but after about 20 - 30 secconds it still hadn't reached 13 volts yet. Was there a certain amount of time I should have ran this test for, or should it have been at atleast 14 volts right from the start?

Anyway, at that point I tested the stator. I pulled the connections loose as you had said. I identified the wires, in my case there was one yellow, and a couple of white with different color stripes on them, one was a green stripe, the other I can't remember for sure right now, maybe blue. I got over 80 volts at each of the three tests.

So I think this indicates that my stator is ok, as it is putting out enough volts at all phases, but my R/R must be shot because those volts aren't making it to the battery, at least the 14.0 - 15.5 that should be.

Am I correct?

 

[earlfor]

You are right on. Your stator is good, the AC voltage output is fine. The R/R is not rectifying it. The new battery solves part of your problem in that the old one would not hold a charge. (dont charge a cycle battery at more than a 2 amp rate) Its not a good idea to start a bike with a battery charger on boost. The increased voltage could have been the reason for your R/R's demise.....cant be sure though. Also, when charging the bike battery, disconnect it from the bike. As an alternative, you can remove the red DC R/R wire from its connection to the battery. That way, your charging system (stator and R/R) are not subject to the charging current. At a 2 amp rate, it is probably not necessary to do this, but I do because I dont want to take any risk whatsoever of cooking my stator or R/R. Costs too much to keep replacing them.

The R/R should output something between 14.2 and 14.8 at 5k rpm. 14.5 to 14.8 is average. Yes, you need a new R/R Some people have had good luck with used R/R's off ebay or otherwise, but I am not one of them. I've always been a diehard Electrex guy, but since the company has changed hands, it appears (from various posts) that there may now be a problem with their quality control. Consequently, I recently replaced the R/R on my 1150 with a Ricks R/R. Also, cycle recycle carrries various R/R's at a decent price. Additionally, I havent heard any negative feedback from those using Honda R/R's. That may be a alternative also. Cycle recycle also carries the Honda part. You can find them at
http://www.crc2onlinecatalog.com/
Then there's bike bandit, Dennis Kirk, Ron Ayers, etc.

Earl

Anyway, at that point I tested the stator. I pulled the connections loose as you had said. I identified the wires, in my case there was one yellow, and a couple of white with different color stripes on them, one was a green stripe, the other I can't remember for sure right now, maybe blue. I got over 80 volts at each of the three tests.

So I think this indicates that my stator is ok, as it is putting out enough volts at all phases, but my R/R must be shot because those volts aren't making it to the battery, at least the 14.0 - 15.5 that should be.

Am I correct?

 

[Anonymous]

Well, one way or the other I'm going pick up an R/R. I'll let you know how it turns out after I install it.

Thanks for all your help and patience. I was ready to just give up on this at one point, glad I didn't.

Thanks again!

 

[earlfor]

Nah, dont give up. Just keep pecking away at it. If you run into any more bugs, post a yell. No matter what has happened, there will always be someone here that has been there, done that and can help you out.

Earl

Well, one way or the other I'm going pick up an R/R. I'll let you know how it turns out after I install it.

Thanks for all your help and patience. I was ready to just give up on this at one point, glad I didn't.

Thanks again!

 

[duaneage]

Actually, if there is more resistance, there will be less current flow, and likely less heating, depending on the mechanism by which resistance has increased. A short is a circuit that doesn't pass through whatever it was intended to pass through, but instead goes directly to ground. An internal short in the battery will cause high current flow in the charging system, stealing output from the lights, coils etc., while heating the wire to the battery. The way to test if this is the problem, is to assess the load that the battery puts on a charger.

Not necessarily. A LOT of resistance will lower current flow, but it is the resistance that generates heat in a circuit

Because....

You have to consider the dead short on the other side of the resistance. In a circuit with absolutely no resistance there will be no heat across it.

What causes problems in connectors is the resistance from poor connections, this leads to heat in the connector and further deterioration.

Consider the TOTAL amount of resistance from beginning to end. The resistance from oxidized wire and bad connections get trapped in a circuit with a short or bad battery and you have a small fire

 

[Anonymous]

Lets imagine a wire going from a battery to a head light and from the head light back to the battery through ground. If there is a bad connection in the wire from battery to head light or on its return trip to the battery, heat will be given off by the bad connection as well as the headlight but the total heat (watts) given off by both will be less in total than if the bad connection was not there at all. The headlight is designed to radiate heat and is very good at it but the bad connection is not. I to think that the battery is suspect. It could be trickle charged, left to sit for a while then tested for voltage.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks, 3phase. Well put.

 

[Anonymous]

Changed the R/R and so far, so good! Thanks to All! I have another question, but I'll open a new thread for that one.

 

[earlfor]

Cheers!

Earl

Changed the R/R and so far, so good! Thanks to All! I have another question, but I'll open a new thread for that one.