Charging system time!

[hannibal]

I've been lucky to have made it this far without charging issues but I think my luck just ran out. I rode about 45 minutes through the city one night last week, ran into a store, and the bike wouldn't start when I came out. It would crank over but never fired up. Walked home and came back in the morning. Same issues. Pulled the battery and put it on the charger for the day. After work, put in the fully charged battery and it fired right up and I rode it home (less than a .75 mile).

Few days later, I rode 60 miles roundtrip without problems. A few days after that, I rode the same route and it died on me after 20-30 miles. Same symptoms: it would crank but not fire. Took the battery out and rode the train home. Came back in the morning with the fresh battery and it fired right up. Tried to make it home and it died after 2 miles while riding on the highway. Took the battery and another long walk to find a train. Charged the battery while I was working and returned with the fresh battery. Made it another mile or so and it died while riding again. Finally got it towed home.

Charged the battery again last night* and I just started the battery quick test. Step 1 showed 12.73V. As soon as I turned the ignition on with lights (step 2), the voltage dropped like a rock. It went down to 11.89V after 10 secs, then slowly climbed back to 11.96V after 30 secs. I'm guessing I killed the battery from the three recent times that I drained it completely. It was a 2 year old lead acid battery I bought when I first got the bike.

No need to continue the quick test until I get a new battery I guess. Walking to AutoZone for a AGM battery ($82). Will report quick test results with the fresh battery but it's obvious to me the old battery wasn't charging. I'll also add that I've felt like the bike has been running very hot since my rebuild this spring. Compared to a friend's GS550, my motor was twice as hot after that first 45 minute ride. Then I read here that a dying stator runs hot, heats the oil, and heats up the entire motor so I suspect it's time for a new stator (and R/R since its the stocktwo piece regulator and rectifier).


*The battery showed 13.7V right after taking it off the charger. Fell to 12.85V two hours after being off the charger. This morning, it was down to 12.73V as shown with the "key off" on the bike test.

 

[hannibal]

I got the AGM battery from AutoZone. It currently sells with a $15 rebate in the form of an AutoZone gift card. The battery read 12.33V out the box so I have it sitting on the charger now. I've read that AGM batteries charge faster than regular lead acid batteries so hopefully I'll be able to continue the quick test later this afternoon.

 

[Boriqua]

Yea when the heck did MC batteries become so expensive. I was pretty shocked when I went and bought a new one and it was some $70 bucks without acid installed. I used to get these for 35-40 dollars.

Sounds like you may get lucky and your battery is just tired and not holding on to the charge. I just had to do the stator ..and while it isnt difficult to swap out .. it is more money to spend.

 

[posplayr]

I've been lucky to have made it this far without charging issues but I think my luck just ran out. I rode about 45 minutes through the city one night last week, ran into a store, and the bike wouldn't start when I came out. It would crank over but never fired up. Walked home and came back in the morning. Same issues. Pulled the battery and put it on the charger for the day. After work, put in the fully charged battery and it fired right up and I rode it home (less than a .75 mile).

Few days later, I rode 60 miles roundtrip without problems. A few days after that, I rode the same route and it died on me after 20-30 miles. Same symptoms: it would crank but not fire. Took the battery out and rode the train home. Came back in the morning with the fresh battery and it fired right up. Tried to make it home and it died after 2 miles while riding on the highway. Took the battery and another long walk to find a train. Charged the battery while I was working and returned with the fresh battery. Made it another mile or so and it died while riding again. Finally got it towed home.

Charged the battery again last night* and I just started the battery quick test. Step 1 showed 12.73V. As soon as I turned the ignition on with lights (step 2), the voltage dropped like a rock. It went down to 11.89V after 10 secs, then slowly climbed back to 11.96V after 30 secs. I'm guessing I killed the battery from the three recent times that I drained it completely. It was a 2 year old lead acid battery I bought when I first got the bike.

No need to continue the quick test until I get a new battery I guess. Walking to AutoZone for a AGM battery ($82). Will report quick test results with the fresh battery but it's obvious to me the old battery wasn't charging. I'll also add that I've felt like the bike has been running very hot since my rebuild this spring. Compared to a friend's GS550, my motor was twice as hot after that first 45 minute ride. Then I read here that a dying stator runs hot, heats the oil, and heats up the entire motor so I suspect it's time for a new stator (and R/R since its the stocktwo piece regulator and rectifier).


*The battery showed 13.7V right after taking it off the charger. Fell to 12.85V two hours after being off the charger. This morning, it was down to 12.73V as shown with the "key off" on the bike test.

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with your battery. Did you check the diagnosis section of the Quick test?
I just looked you are only dropping about 0.7-0.8v and staying just below 12V . That is fine. A 2.0V drop would be bad. and they could be 5.0V which nothing will happen when you push the start button.

proceed to the next steps and complete all of then. See all 6 numbers all together on one shot is best for diagnosis. Sometimes the battery can be a little low and that affects the later numbers so it helps to have that info to diagnose that later numbers.

When you first pull a battery off of the crager and it is reading at or above 13 volts is just what is called a "surface charge". The voltage is more normally in the range 12.6-12.8V. A good battery will start at 13v+ after the charge and then with a couple of amp load for say 10 seconds to go to the normal range but still have a very high "State of Charge"

 

[hannibal]

Well posplayr, I went by your quick test that said if it dropped more than 0.5V, then the battery was bad. I was concerned that I would get to steps 3 thorugh 5 and not be able to determine whether the stator was charging or the battery just couldn't take the charge.

I cheaped out on the lead acid battery when I first got the bike. I bought a 12Ah instead of the standard 14Ah cause it was $10 cheaper and I didn't know the condition of the rest of the bike.

No harm, no foul. I now have an AGM battery that should last 10 years. Just waiting on this thing to charge so I can continue the tests.

Edit: I highly value your opinion. When I bought the bike, I found the cable had melted off at the positive battery terminal. I googled and found GS Resources and your threads on single point grounding. I did the SPG, fixed the positive wire, and it got me to this point without issues. I'd appreciate you popping back into this thread to review my test results.

 

[Nessism]

A SERIES type R/R, SH775, costs less than $40 shipped off ebay. Install one of those, fix the poor charging system wiring, and the system will last for a long time.

 

[Alki700gs]

Will this work on a 1985 GS700ES?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-REGULAT...ash=item3d46cd7124:g:L2wAAOSwP6pZpvrp&vxp=mtr

The charging system passes all the tests until the engine warms up ... then no charging

Thanks in advance!

Eddie

Seattle WA

ps: I apologize for any ignorance ... the last time I owned a Suzuki was 35 years ago (TS250) ... the GS700ES is a recently acquired father/son project

 

[jsandidge]

That is the Regulator you want.

 

[hillsy]

The charging system passes all the tests until the engine warms up ... then no charging

You might want to check all your wiring and connections first - it sounds like there might be some issues there when the circuit warms up.

 

[Alki700gs]

hillsy,

Thanks! We are currently cleaning up the electical contacts ... ALL OF THEM!

Based on the amount of water and rust in the fuel tank and carbs, this bike may have used as a submarine!

I see you have a Z1300A5 We have a couple of GTR1000's (Concours in the USA) ... kind of like a 4 cylinder Z1300 ... dead nuts reliable!

Thx Eddie

ps: I would love to visit Brisbane ... again ... its been 35 years. Australia is GREAT ... the people are better!

 

[hannibal]

Sorry, I was out of town for awhile.

Posplayr, you were correct (once again). I installed the new battery and had the same issues. By the time I let the motor warm up, I could barely do the battery quick test before she died on me and would not restart.

The results with brand new battery fresh off the battery charger:
Key off: 12.93V
Key on (lights on after 10 secs): 12.40V
1500rpm: 13.8V
2500rpm: 14.5V
5000rpm: 14.8-14.9V (I had a hard time keeping it at 5000rpm because the revs kept falling. It got close but never went over 15V)
Key off: 13.2V and fell to 13.02V after 30 secs

After the 5000rpm reading, I let off the throttle and it dropped to idle for a few seconds and the revs kept falling til it died. It wouldn't restart so I couldn't continue testing but from the quick test, my new battery is good and it seems like I'm getting good output from the stator.

I had fuel in the bowls and since I had my meter out, I decided to check input voltage at the coils. I got 11.3V with the positive lead on the O/W wire where it splits to the coils and with the negative lead grounded on a cylinder head end cover (the round piece). This seems pretty low to me.

A bit of history... when I first bought the bike, the positive wire had melted off at the battery terminal. I replaced the ring connector and did the single point ground. I also cleaned all the connectors in the headlight bucket and eliminated the stator loop to the headlight switch. I replaced the bullet connectors with spade connectors between the stator and R/R. I don't think I cleaned the connector at the coils or in the kill switch. Should this be my next step? Any other thoughts on where to go from here?

 

[posplayr]

Sorry, I was out of town for awhile.

Posplayr, you were correct (once again). I installed the new battery and had the same issues. By the time I let the motor warm up, I could barely do the battery quick test before she died on me and would not restart.

The results with brand new battery fresh off the battery charger:
Key off: 12.93V
Key on (lights on after 10 secs): 12.40V
1500rpm: 13.8V
2500rpm: 14.5V
5000rpm: 14.8-14.9V (I had a hard time keeping it at 5000rpm because the revs kept falling. It got close but never went over 15V)
Key off: 13.2V and fell to 13.02V after 30 secs

After the 5000rpm reading, I let off the throttle and it dropped to idle for a few seconds and the revs kept falling til it died. It wouldn't restart so I couldn't continue testing but from the quick test, my new battery is good and it seems like I'm getting good output from the stator.

I had fuel in the bowls and since I had my meter out, I decided to check input voltage at the coils. I got 11.3V with the positive lead on the O/W wire where it splits to the coils and with the negative lead grounded on a cylinder head end cover (the round piece). This seems pretty low to me.

A bit of history... when I first bought the bike, the positive wire had melted off at the battery terminal. I replaced the ring connector and did the single point ground. I also cleaned all the connectors in the headlight bucket and eliminated the stator loop to the headlight switch. I replaced the bullet connectors with spade connectors between the stator and R/R. I don't think I cleaned the connector at the coils or in the kill switch. Should this be my next step? Any other thoughts on where to go from here?

Is this a SH775 and Electrosport stator? Your numbers seem a little high although if it were not for the 14.8-14.9V I would say you were fine if they just stayed at 14.5V at 5K RPM.

The coil voltage will be low if you have a dirty ignition switch and dirty fuse box. That Is why people the the Coil relay mods. After a complete rebuild and complete harness replacement on my GS1100ED/1166, it was real difficult to start while cold and needed a "squirt". It was due to about 10.5V at the coils. Did the coil relay and it would start instantly. Later I designed the SSPB.

 

[hannibal]

Stock regulator with separate rectifier. I believe it's the stock stator as well. The bike came with the stock in line glass fuse which I replaced with a single in line ATC holder and fuse (the blade type automotive fuse).



In general, would high readings mean the stator is functioning correctly but the regulator is allowing too much voltage? Perhaps the regulator is overheating a shutting down?

 

[hannibal]

So I've been frustrated with this thing for 2 weeks. Spent some time with it today and learned some valuable lessons. I checked contact points and adjusted. I then tested primary coil resistance and got 4.5V on one and 4.4V on the other coil. I then retested the secondaries and got 22.5k ohms and 50k ohm. Then one of the 50k ohm plug boots fell off in my hand. Trimmed a little from the lead and reattched. I started the bike and it ran like a champ... for a few minutes and died. Waited and hour and same thing, it ran then sputtered out.

Fuel! Switched to reserve and it ran for several minutes. Hit the gas station and did a few laps around the neighborhood without issue.

Lessons learned: ignition problems are usually constant unless heat is affecting something. And always make sure you have fuel. It took several times of starting and dying for me to consider this.

Lastly, I know it wasn't a fuel issue the first time it refused to start since after I got it started, I rode for 2 or 3 days before it reappeared. I'm sad to say that the subsequent starting and dying was very much due to lack of fuel.

I'm sticking with laps around the neighborhood for a few miles to see if anything changes. Next step will be real R/R and stator tests.

 

[posplayr]

Nothing we have not all been through. Keep going and the persistence will pay off. You will have every confidence in the your ability to fix the bike and can ride it with confidence.

 

[Brendan W]

I think you have seen what a bad connection can do.
It took me a while to fully appreciate the extent of this issue.
If you haven't already, I highly recommend cleaning the fusebox and internal contacts of the kill and ignition switches.
Keep tracking the supply voltage to the coils with a target of 0.5 Volt below the system voltage.

 

[hannibal]

Thanks for the encouragement. I hate to admit to such a silly mistake.

In other news, I just realized I have a 18 pole stator so it is not the original. This may explain why I haven't had charging issues most GSs seem to have. I'm assume the rotor was swapped out as well since I've read the two different styles are not compatible. Hope this makes finding a stator easy if the time comes. I've seen both Electrosport stators for $80ish on Ebay.

I'm also more inclined to switch to a used Polaris SH775 as a preventative measure.

 

[hannibal]

The bike has been running great lately with one exception. When starting it cold, I get two or three backfires per cylinder through the pods during the first few cranks. Once it's running, I sometimes get a another pop or two as it's warming up. After the first 30 seconds, I get no more popping and it warms up as normal.

When I checked the ignition system, I started at the points, then the coils, and finally the plugs. The only thing I adjusted was the points. I reset the point gap and reset the points opening to the F mark. I've read that backfiring through the intake/pods indicates a lean condition. In my case, my conclusion is I'm running too advanced or too retarded. Can this cause backfiring through the pods? What I can't decide is whether too advanced or too retarded would cause the symptoms I described. My plan is to rotate the points plate slightly until the backfiring goes away, but I can't figure out which way to turn it.

I guess I could try both directions, but I'm afraid of damaging something.