Clutch plates, clutch basket question.

[KEITH KRAUSE]

This is a little long, but I hope someone can help me understand this.
A little history. V&H rebuilt/welded my clutch and basket. They installed aftermarket (brand unknown) fiber plates, 8 of them I believe. I wanted genuine Suzuki but forgot to mention that.
I soon found out that I could no longer use 20/50 oil because the clutch dragged. I switched to 10/40 and the clutch works fine. I would still like to replace them with genuine Suzuki plates sometime so I can use 20/50 oil in the summer.
My problem is, for whatever reason, the aftermarket fibers are .17" thick. My Suzuki manual says the Suzuki plates are about .11" thick. The total difference in the 8 plates is then .48" 8O. I went to V&H yesterday to say I wanted to switch back to Suzuki plates. They said I could but I have to retain the EXACT total thickness I have now (fibers and steels). Mathematically, this won't work, no matter how I add things up. To try to retain the same thickness, I would have to add 2 more Suzuki fibers and 2 steels (steels are about .10" thick) and I still would be off. If I added 3 more of each, I'm way over.
I don't even know if you CAN add plates. I asked V&H how did they get an equal number of thicker aftermarket plates in my basket and they said something about the back of the clutch must have been modified (material removed?)
It's been 5 years since my rebuild and V&H says they don't remember what was done to the clutch, which I can understand. I only know that I guess I can't go back to genuine Suzuki plates now.
Can anyone tell me why aftermarket plates are thicker? Can anyone measure a new Suzuki fiber plate and tell me if they are really about .11 thick? I'm only going by my manual, I've never measured a Suzuki plate.
Has anyone ever heard that the rear of the clutch basket has to be modified to accept thicker plates? If so, why? Seems easier to just make all plates the same thickness and not have to modify anything. I'm totally confused about this whole thing.

 

[Jethro]

Well, I can't help too much, which is a shame after all the assistance you have given me. However, I do have stock plates and fibers at home for both my 81 and 83 1100E. I'll measure them tonight.

When I got the 83 the clutch was slipping. Could have been the oil, but I had just put brand new plates and fibers in the 81. I didn't know if the clutches were the same, so what else to do? Tear it down and find out. Anyway, the 81 had 9 of each plate and friction. The 83 had 10 friction and 11 plates. Apparently the clutch needed more friction in the 83 model, but the clutch basket, hub and pressure plate were exactly the same. I put the 9 plates and frictions in the 83 and it works fine and dandy. The only thing they could modify is the hub to create more or less room for the clutch pack, unless the basket was modified, but that would mean a new bearing for the jack shaft- I can't imagine they would do that, those big needle bearings are hardcore. I'd say your worst case scenario is buying a new hub, but I'm not sure. Again, I'll measure my plates tonight.

 

[Jethro]

Can anyone measure a new Suzuki fiber plate and tell me if they are really about .11 thick?

I remember being suprised at how thin the friction plates on the 83 were in comparison to what I was use to on the 81. .11 sounds about right.

 

[Anonymous]

I do remember that when Suzuki went from 9 & 9 plates, to 10 & 11 plates, they made the plates thinner so the new 21 plates took the same space as the earlier 18 plates, thus no change in the basket or inner hub

 

[Anonymous]

clutch

clutch

V&H may have swapped yours for a later unit cause it was ready to go, also measure the total of the stack and not each plate,and if your measuring wet versus dry plates forget it cause there not going to measure out right, its not the some of each part its the total as measured cause there will be a big difference due to thickness varation of each part, also when you measure the stack besure that you put at least 10 pounds of weight on the stack so you get a close measurement

 

[gsbill]

The back of those baskets had material removed so you would omit the spring and retaining ring. You would then have more material to push against the plate/fiber stack, instead of the small lip you got from Suzuki, Be sure your hub has the grooves cut all the way to the back of the basket so your stack will seat properly. Pile up the steels and fibers to make up what you need.

What you most likely have have is a very common clutch mod.

 

[gsbill]

Checking some books...Fibers from Suz .11 to .12 thick, 2.9-3.1mm

Steels 2.0mm +/- .06mm Those are for 1100 and 1150 clutches

2mm = .07 3mm =.118 2.77mm=.1094 3.17mm=.1250 for reference.

3 fibers x .11=.33( plus 2 steels @ .07=.14) = .47, pretty darn close!

 

[Anonymous]

basket

basket

gs I was thinking that at first but I didn't think they could take off the amount of materal that keith described in extra space he has?do they then put a steel plate in first instead of a fiber??and do they completely remove the lip?

 

[focus frenzy]

Can anyone measure a new Suzuki fiber plate and tell me if they are really about .11 thick?

I remember being suprised at how thin the friction plates on the 83 were in comparison to what I was use to on the 81. .11 sounds about right.

suzuki went to thinner plates and fibers for the 83 1100E to handle the extra power and to eliminate the posibility of slippage under hard use.

 

[gsbill]

Our bike had the lip completely removed. A steel went in first.

 

[Anonymous]

plates

plates

AAAHHHH I was thinking that at first but thought nah they would have to mill out the plate groves on the center hub, O guess keith could mix and match to get the correct pack height, using mostly stock ones

 

[gsbill]

You have top look close at those grooves. I had to take some material out on my hub so the stack would seat properly...

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Thanks for the replies! At least I have some idea of what happened with my clutch. It's been 5 years.
I asked V&H if they could modify my basket as Motorcyclist did to their project bike back in '84. My clutch was rattling and with the mod's I planned on, I read it was a good idea to weld the clutch basket. They sent the clutch out to someone and it came back with heavier damper springs and you could see the welding. It was my original basket too.
I soon found out that 20/50 made the clutch drag, especially when cold. I've always assumed it's because of the aftermarket thicker plates. With the 10/40, the clutch is great, no complaints. I just had a chance at getting some NOS Suzuki fibers for cheap and thought I would try them. After stopping by V&H to ask what they thought about simply changing back to Suzuki plates, I found it was more complicated than that.
I don't understand the mods made to the basket as gsbill and others do, but the clutch does work well.
My main questions now are: why are aftermarket fibers thicker than stockers? What's the purpose? Thicker plates only seems necessary if you're modifying the basket as I did. But from what I hear, this mod isn't common enough to dictate that all aftermarket plates will be thicker.
My other questions are: just how precise do you have to be in matching the total thickness of the plates? Will .02 extra material cause dragging. Will .02 or even .01 less material cause slipping? Does it matter how many total plates you end up with? And for every added fiber, you must add a steel, correct? The sequence must be maintained.

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Any more info on this subject or my questions appreciated.

 

[Anonymous]

I've wondered, when Suzuki went from 9 & 9 to 10 & 11, either the inside or the outside plate had to change from fiber to steel. It doesn't seem like a steel against the back of the basket nor a steel against the pressure plate would be a good idea, but I guess it doesn't matter, as long as the entire clutch pack is the right thickness.

 

[gsbill]

The Suzuki oem fibers are considered the best.

I wish I had all my notes on my old bike...I dont think it matters how many plates and fibers you end up with, as long as you get the correct stack height. Getting as close as possible should allow you to adjust the clutch to work properly.

I may have had 2 steels in a row in my bike, but I can recall for certain. Check with a good name shop.

Our clutch worked great. the only problem I had, was during a hasty rebuild, I didnt get the oil pump groove in the back of the basket over the oil pump gear. The clutched work to launch the bike. At about 100 ft it gave way, broke the hub in 2. Lesson learned there!

 

[KEITH KRAUSE]

Thanks for the replies. I think I'll stay with the clutch the way it is.
Instead of wanting to run 20/50 in the summer, I'll consider an oil cooler with the 10/40.
That's another subject I'll have questions about.

 

[gsbill]

I always ran 10/40 in my 1150...Race or street. I used a syn/blend most of the time.