M
matticus66
Guest
When the clutch rod (by the front sprocket) is pushed, should it spring back out when I let go of it?
-
Required reading for all forum users!!!
Welcome!
Register to access the full functionality of the GSResources forum. Until you register and activate your account you will not have full forum access, nor will you be able to post or reply to messages.A note to new registrants...
All new forum registrations must be activated via email before you have full access to the forum.A Special Note about Email accounts!
DO NOT SIGN UP USING hotmail, outlook, gmx, sbcglobal, att, bellsouth or email.com. They delete our forum signup emails.A note to old forum members...
I receive numerous requests from people who can no longer log in because their accounts were deleted. As mentioned in the forum FAQ, user accounts are deleted if you haven't logged in for the past 6 months. If you can't log in, then create a new forum account. If you don't get an error message, then check your email account for an activation message. If you get a message stating that the email address is already in use, then your account still exists so follow the instructions in the forum FAQ for resetting your password.Have you forgotten your password or have a new email address? Then read the forum FAQ for details on how to reset it.
Any email requests for "can't log in anymore" problems or "lost my password" problems will be deleted. Read the forum FAQ and follow the instructions there - that's what we have one for...
-
Returning Visitors
If you are a returning visitor who never received your confirmation email, then odds are your email provider is blockinig emails from our server. The only thing that can be done to get around this is you will have to try creating another forum account using an email address from another domain.
If you are a returning visitor to the forum and can't log in using your old forum name and password but used to be able to then chances are your account is deleted. Purges of the databases are done regularly. You will have to create a new forum account and you should be all set.
K
KPottorff
Guest
Clutch rod return?
Clutch rod return?
Definitely.
When the rod is pushed in, it overcomes the spring pressure in the clutch basket. The spring pressure holds the friction plates together and this is what transmits power from the crankshaft through the transmission to the final drive.
If you pull on the rod when the cover is off it will come out some distance but it should not come out completely and you shouldn't try to pull it out completely. (It may be hard to get back in without disassembling the engine.) This is normal as the cover with the throwout mechanism - this is what pushes on the rod when you pull in the clutch lever - will hold the rod in place when the cover is attached to the engine.
If you can push the rod in by hand with the cover off, I would say that there is a problem in the clutch basket in the form of weak or broken springs. This would manifest itself in a slipping clutch and no acceleration. It should be hard as hell and painful to push in the rod by hand.
Clutch rod return?
Definitely.
When the rod is pushed in, it overcomes the spring pressure in the clutch basket. The spring pressure holds the friction plates together and this is what transmits power from the crankshaft through the transmission to the final drive.
If you pull on the rod when the cover is off it will come out some distance but it should not come out completely and you shouldn't try to pull it out completely. (It may be hard to get back in without disassembling the engine.) This is normal as the cover with the throwout mechanism - this is what pushes on the rod when you pull in the clutch lever - will hold the rod in place when the cover is attached to the engine.
If you can push the rod in by hand with the cover off, I would say that there is a problem in the clutch basket in the form of weak or broken springs. This would manifest itself in a slipping clutch and no acceleration. It should be hard as hell and painful to push in the rod by hand.
M
matticus66
Guest
The rod goes in and comes out about an inch, so I pulled the right cover off and dissasembled the clutch, but I couldnt find anything wrong with it. The springs are fine, but it's impossible to push that rod and have the clutch move. I'm going to go take pictures and post them in a few.
M
matticus66
Guest
Clutch springs:
clutch with springs taken out:
pressure plate off:
pressure plate back:
clutch with springs taken out:
pressure plate off:
pressure plate back:
M
matticus66
Guest
The piece between the plate and the rod:
the rod, should it have a spring kinda thing on one end of it? It almost looks like it is rusted on it
the rod when installed all the way out:
and all the way in:
there you go, any suggestions on what needs fixin? Like I said, when it's all together and the rod is pushed, the clutch does nothing, and the rod just gets shorter
the rod, should it have a spring kinda thing on one end of it? It almost looks like it is rusted on it
the rod when installed all the way out:
and all the way in:
there you go, any suggestions on what needs fixin? Like I said, when it's all together and the rod is pushed, the clutch does nothing, and the rod just gets shorter
K
KPottorff
Guest
Clutch Moves?
Clutch Moves?
When you pull the clutch lever that rod won't move much. It just moves enough to release the pressure on the plates and allow them to spin past each other.
Let's try this again.
Are you having a hard time shifting into first at a standstill? Are you having a hard time keeping the bike from creeping along when stopped? Are you having a hard time shifting smoothly between gears when accelerating / decelerating? Does the problem show up when the engine is hot or cold?
Most of these problems are part of the clutch adjustment. The adjustment for the clutch rod is under the little cover on the main cover. If you have tried to adjust the clutch at the lever you will find that won't work. Well, not much.
One more thing to consider is the oil. These are "wet" clutches that are part of the main crankcase / transmission sump. An oil that is too thick will make the plates grab each other through the viscosity of the oil at temperature. This is why the multi-viscosity oil is recommended and usually the 10W-40. Using straight 30 viscosity oil won't actually harm anything but it can play hob with shifting. This is also why no one has these sort of problems with manual shift autos or Harleys for that matter. The clutches don't sit in an oil bath.
That's just my two cents worth. Anyone got a better idea? If I'm wrong anywhere someone say something. Most of my experience on motor vehicles is with old aircooled VWs - but motorcycles are not really too different.
Clutch Moves?
When you pull the clutch lever that rod won't move much. It just moves enough to release the pressure on the plates and allow them to spin past each other.
Let's try this again.
Are you having a hard time shifting into first at a standstill? Are you having a hard time keeping the bike from creeping along when stopped? Are you having a hard time shifting smoothly between gears when accelerating / decelerating? Does the problem show up when the engine is hot or cold?
Most of these problems are part of the clutch adjustment. The adjustment for the clutch rod is under the little cover on the main cover. If you have tried to adjust the clutch at the lever you will find that won't work. Well, not much.
One more thing to consider is the oil. These are "wet" clutches that are part of the main crankcase / transmission sump. An oil that is too thick will make the plates grab each other through the viscosity of the oil at temperature. This is why the multi-viscosity oil is recommended and usually the 10W-40. Using straight 30 viscosity oil won't actually harm anything but it can play hob with shifting. This is also why no one has these sort of problems with manual shift autos or Harleys for that matter. The clutches don't sit in an oil bath.
That's just my two cents worth. Anyone got a better idea? If I'm wrong anywhere someone say something. Most of my experience on motor vehicles is with old aircooled VWs - but motorcycles are not really too different.
K
KPottorff
Guest
I was composing the last message while you got the pictures up.
It looks like you have the engine out of the frame. When I said that you shouldn't be able to pull the rod out that would be in reference to pulling the rod from the left side of the engine under the clutch throwout cover. It will pull out from the clutch basket side as you already know. That's as it should be.
In reference to the second picture in the second set. I'll have to look at my manual for my 400 but the clutch is basically the same. I'm sure that you won't find any spring on the end of the rod. That's the end that points left in your photo. The "rust" that you see to the left is probably oxidized oil and is normal. Actual rust on the end to the right is to be expected since that part sticks out of the case and is exposed to moisture. Buff it off with some fine steel wool. It will keep from tearing up the seal.
Again, there isn't much movement when the throwout pushes the rod to disengage the clutch.
It looks like you have the engine out of the frame. When I said that you shouldn't be able to pull the rod out that would be in reference to pulling the rod from the left side of the engine under the clutch throwout cover. It will pull out from the clutch basket side as you already know. That's as it should be.
In reference to the second picture in the second set. I'll have to look at my manual for my 400 but the clutch is basically the same. I'm sure that you won't find any spring on the end of the rod. That's the end that points left in your photo. The "rust" that you see to the left is probably oxidized oil and is normal. Actual rust on the end to the right is to be expected since that part sticks out of the case and is exposed to moisture. Buff it off with some fine steel wool. It will keep from tearing up the seal.
Again, there isn't much movement when the throwout pushes the rod to disengage the clutch.
M
matticus66
Guest
the rust I was talking about is only on the left side of that rod in the picture, on the spring looking thing(that doesnt look like it should be there) . My main concern is that the engine shifts gears if the rod is out or in, so I assumed it was a clutch problem, I just don't want to fix it up then have the gears all grinded up.
Last edited:
K
KPottorff
Guest
I dug out my manual for my GS400 last night and looked over the clutch assembly diagram. Actually, the setup for the clutch is common for many, many Japanese motorcycles and probably some European and British bikes also.
Let's start with the second picture set again.
The first picture is the clutch bearing. The clutch rod pushes this against the pressure plate and it is a spinning bearing surface so that the rod doesn't drill a hole into the pressure plate. The diagram shows no spring in the assembly.
The second picture of the rod is how the rod is supposed to look. The barbed end is normal and does not hold a spring. The manual says that you should check the rod to make sure that it isn't bent. Roll it along a flat surface to check this. A bent rod will throw off the adjustment procedure.
The only other specification to determine is the clutch spring length. They should all be the same length and any that are shorter by a great amount could be an indicator of a weakened spring. The idea is that pressure is applied evenly around the faces of the clutch plates and a weak or shortened spring will affect the pressure.
Once you put the mechanism back together, push the rod from the left so that it bottoms out on the pressure plate. That's as far as it will be out when in use. Push it in (It should be fairly difficult and it should be only a couple of millimeters) and that's the full amount of travel it has. Being able to pull it out a few centimeters or so when the cover plate is off is not a part of the clutch operation.
Looking over the other pictures I don't see obvious things like water or moisture damage. As I said before, the rust you describe on the left end of the clutch rod, right under your fingers and towards the end, is oxidized oil and is normal. That end is inside the engine and would not be exposed to moisture. The right end is, however, exposed to the outside and would be expected to have rust on it. Buff it off with some steel wool and the seal on the left side of the engine will last longer.
As for the transmission, being able to work the shift mechanism when not running is no indicator of clutch performance. You'll have to put it back together and check it out. If the transmission hasn't been abused - high RPM starts, speedshifting, etc. - then you should be good to go.
I hope I've been of some help.
Good Luck and keep your stick on the ice.
Let's start with the second picture set again.
The first picture is the clutch bearing. The clutch rod pushes this against the pressure plate and it is a spinning bearing surface so that the rod doesn't drill a hole into the pressure plate. The diagram shows no spring in the assembly.
The second picture of the rod is how the rod is supposed to look. The barbed end is normal and does not hold a spring. The manual says that you should check the rod to make sure that it isn't bent. Roll it along a flat surface to check this. A bent rod will throw off the adjustment procedure.
The only other specification to determine is the clutch spring length. They should all be the same length and any that are shorter by a great amount could be an indicator of a weakened spring. The idea is that pressure is applied evenly around the faces of the clutch plates and a weak or shortened spring will affect the pressure.
Once you put the mechanism back together, push the rod from the left so that it bottoms out on the pressure plate. That's as far as it will be out when in use. Push it in (It should be fairly difficult and it should be only a couple of millimeters) and that's the full amount of travel it has. Being able to pull it out a few centimeters or so when the cover plate is off is not a part of the clutch operation.
Looking over the other pictures I don't see obvious things like water or moisture damage. As I said before, the rust you describe on the left end of the clutch rod, right under your fingers and towards the end, is oxidized oil and is normal. That end is inside the engine and would not be exposed to moisture. The right end is, however, exposed to the outside and would be expected to have rust on it. Buff it off with some steel wool and the seal on the left side of the engine will last longer.
As for the transmission, being able to work the shift mechanism when not running is no indicator of clutch performance. You'll have to put it back together and check it out. If the transmission hasn't been abused - high RPM starts, speedshifting, etc. - then you should be good to go.
I hope I've been of some help.
Good Luck and keep your stick on the ice.
M
matticus66
Guest
i kno this sounds wierd, but how springy should the springs be? Mine are really stiff and hard to compress
K
KPottorff
Guest
Boing!
Boing!
They're supposed to be really stiff. However, you can't determine if they are within spec by how "springy" they are.
You measure the length of the springs and go from there. Somebody is bound to know what the length is supposed to be or you can find the spec yourself.
Boing!
They're supposed to be really stiff. However, you can't determine if they are within spec by how "springy" they are.
You measure the length of the springs and go from there. Somebody is bound to know what the length is supposed to be or you can find the spec yourself.
M
matticus66
Guest
yeah, i know they're supposed to be 1.43inches, but I dont have a caliper:-D
K
KPottorff
Guest
I would suspect that if they are all pretty much the same length then they are probably good to go. The specs for my GS400 are 38.4mm normal and 37mm minimum. I forget what the english equivalent was. Springs rarely go "soft" under normal use. They are tempered and heat is the greatest enemy of tempering.
It shouldn't be too hard to use a ruler on a flat surface to check the length. I think the trick would be to make sure the zero mark on the ruler was consistently lined up with the end of a spring. Try using a countertop that forms a 90 degree angle with the wall. Or the edge of a desk and a piece of wood. As long as you can see the marks on the ruler that line up with the spring end.
It shouldn't be too hard to use a ruler on a flat surface to check the length. I think the trick would be to make sure the zero mark on the ruler was consistently lined up with the end of a spring. Try using a countertop that forms a 90 degree angle with the wall. Or the edge of a desk and a piece of wood. As long as you can see the marks on the ruler that line up with the spring end.
M
matticus66
Guest
yeah, I'm just trying to blame something, it's kinda frustrating. I took all of the clutch plates off and the thing wouldnt shift\\
/, but when i put it back together itll shift through the gears
without pulling the cable, so I assumed it was either the plates or the springs.
/, but when i put it back together itll shift through the gears without pulling the cable, so I assumed it was either the plates or the springs.
M
matticus66
Guest
I think my problem is the same as this:
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=80349
so it's no real problem, just need to hook the chain up I think?
http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=80349
so it's no real problem, just need to hook the chain up I think?
K
KPottorff
Guest
Been off for the weekend.
After looking at the link, I think that this is the same situation for you. If everything worked OK before you started, then it will probably will after you put it back together.
You mention that you took out the clutch plates. Did you put them back in the EXACT SAME order that they came out? It will make a difference. On inspection of the plates you are looking for obvious problems like burnt or missing material or scoring. If you don't see anything like that then you should be good to go.
Be aware the the transmission will shift when on the stand. It's just like an auto with a manual trans sitting in the drive with the engine off. The gears aren't moving and will mesh together. The clutch is just the means to stop the gears from moving, actually removing power from the system, while you move one gear past another to make them mesh.
After looking at the link, I think that this is the same situation for you. If everything worked OK before you started, then it will probably will after you put it back together.
You mention that you took out the clutch plates. Did you put them back in the EXACT SAME order that they came out? It will make a difference. On inspection of the plates you are looking for obvious problems like burnt or missing material or scoring. If you don't see anything like that then you should be good to go.
Be aware the the transmission will shift when on the stand. It's just like an auto with a manual trans sitting in the drive with the engine off. The gears aren't moving and will mesh together. The clutch is just the means to stop the gears from moving, actually removing power from the system, while you move one gear past another to make them mesh.