Confounded, but well-grounded

[Jagir]

Hey gang,

I am attempting in earnest to diagnose an ongoing electrical issue on my ride. It's a 1980 GS400. It is fairly stock and in very nice shape. Any help, questions or suggestions are welcome and encouraged.

The main issues are: going through a battery a year and intermittent electrical power loss during short rides. It was fine for the first 15000 km I put on it, but was since stored outside.

Another issue that may/may not be related is signal lights staying on constant unless the RPMs are over 5000 (maybe a bulb? see below #2). I put an automotive 12volt bulb in the headlight and have replaced a few of the signal lights.

I have suspected the stator for some time so I have been doing the preliminary work before moving on to the stator papers:

1. electrical system: inspected, a few wires replaced, every connection and ground cleaned with contact cleaner and dielectric greased. There were some burned ones and corrosion on some.
2. bulbs: cleaned the bases and inspected (all were 12 volt, but some were different makes/amps. Could this cause the low rev/solid signal?
3. new battery

I began test phase A of the stator papers tonight, but am ending up with strange results that do not seem to make sense:

1. new battery registers 12.63 volts. its been in the bike for 2 weeks - maybe? Not been run much.
2. start bike, rev to 5000 RPM=11.75 volts
3. BLACK multimeter lead to + (battery) & RED multimeter lead to (white/blue) output (to R/R) on stator= -2v..-3...-4...-5...-6...-7.5..
4. RED multimeter lead to battery & BLACK multimeter lead to negative output (yellow) on stator= 8.2v. With BLACK multimeter lead to R/R casing=12v

Here are my multimeter readings with red on red battery lead and black on black battery lead:

• bike off - 12.15v
• bike on (key on switch) 11.89v
• start bike 11.83v
• Rev to 5000 Rpm 11.86v..going down to 11.79v
• shut off bike 12.06v

If you haven't guessed, my only electrical know-how is from thegsresources and sticking my tongue on a 9v battery.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Mekanix]

lol :hand:step away from the 12 v battery told ya


Well my friend I believe I can help you out allot

I've got the 81 version and I'm really familiar with the wiring on it


1. unplug all 3 wires coming from the engine stator,

measure from one to the other and then one to the last wire
the colors don't matter at all,

At 5000rpm you should get 75v AC no matter how you measure them.

they shouldn't give you any voltage to ground though

if that is good , we move on, if not than possible bad stator


2.connect these 3 wires to the 3 wires on the Regulator .

there are right now 2 that go to the RR but the other one goes up to the headlight switch and is just not needed, so just don't use these wires and instead connect the last wire to the one on the RR

3 ground the rr to the frame. run another wire from that point to the other side and then to the battery ground.

4 the positive red wire from the RR goes to the electrical system all the time and bypasses the fuse

5 only the battery is fused.

So with the bike running just pull the fuse and it should die if the charging system is faulty.


if it does stay running though , measure from ground to the battery + and see what you get and then measure from ground to the other side of the fuse holder and you should have 13v + just above idle.

If it dies and you have good voltage coming out of the stator than its probably the voltage regulator.


One last thing put the fuse back in and unplug the red wire coming from the RR . With the bike running you should have voltage there around 14v.

If not , its the RR

if so than its the red wire that goes from the RR connection to the red wire on the fuse holder ( the side with 2 red wires)

See what you get

 

[Jagir]

thanks, will try this tomorrow or Friday and report back.

I want to get the electrical system sorted before any modifications, but am wondering if LED signals would help?

Also wouldn't mind heated grips.

 

[Mekanix]

That's exactly what I did

Heated grips and heated seat and LED's


the LED's made a huge difference and draw 0.05 amps , all you need is an electronic relay that works on lower current, That you can get from princess auto there is one more mod for doing that but you need 2 diodes and to add one extra wire, Its just for the instrument cluster light that blinks.

I'm using ceramic type warmers in mine and I don't notice any drain on the electrical system, but they do draw 2.5 amps.

 

[tkent02]

Read the rest of the stator papers, the part about corrosion causing all the problems.
Clean every connection on every wire, even the ones that look shiny have some tarnish, which does not conduct electricity.

 

[bakalorz]

lol :hand:step away from the 12 v battery told ya


Well my friend I believe I can help you out allot

I've got the 81 version and I'm really familiar with the wiring on it


1. unplug all 3 wires coming from the engine stator,

measure from one to the other and then one to the last wire
the colors don't matter at all,

At 5000rpm you should get 75v AC no matter how you measure them.

they shouldn't give you any voltage to ground though

if that is good , we move on, if not than possible bad stator


2.connect these 3 wires to the 3 wires on the Regulator .

there are right now 2 that go to the RR but the other one goes up to the headlight switch and is just not needed, so just don't use these wires and instead connect the last wire to the one on the RR

3 ground the rr to the frame. run another wire from that point to the other side and then to the battery ground.

4 the positive red wire from the RR goes to the electrical system all the time and bypasses the fuse

5 only the battery is fused.

So with the bike running just pull the fuse and it should die if the charging system is faulty.

Dont do that !!! (pull the fuse with the bike running)

It can blow the ignitor.

In addition to the other stuff it does, the battery acts as a giant filter to prevent the voltage going up and down too much.

The output of the R/R in a system with the battery disconnected will be a bunch of spikes. these can damage the ignitor.

if it does stay running though , measure from ground to the battery + and see what you get and then measure from ground to the other side of the fuse holder and you should have 13v + just above idle.

If it dies and you have good voltage coming out of the stator than its probably the voltage regulator.


One last thing put the fuse back in and unplug the red wire coming from the RR . With the bike running you should have voltage there around 14v.

If not , its the RR

Ummm... no, thats not right ...

when you unplug the R/R red wire, it will attempt to put out pulses to charge the battery. With nothing to charge, they will rapidly go too high and then cause the R/R to shunt, which will be near zero volts ...

What a Voltmeter will read is pretty indeterminate, Although it will probably be below 14 volts, but that means nothing, because the R/R is not working with the proper load connected to it.

if so than its the red wire that goes from the RR connection to the red wire on the fuse holder ( the side with 2 red wires)

See what you get

You can follow all the stuff up to where he tells you to pull the fuse.
Ignore everything from that point on.

Follow the stator papers for the rest of it.

 

[posplayr]

I improved and had reviewed updates to the first Phase of the stator pages.

http://www.posplayr.100megsfree3.com/FH012AA_Charging/Stator_Papers_Phase A.pdf


http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=152769

 

[Jagir]

thanks all.
Hope to try again tonight or tomorrow.

Hey bakalorz, why replace the bullets with spades?

 

[posplayr]

thanks all.
Hope to try again tonight or tomorrow.

Hey bakalorz, why replace the bullets with spades?

The bullets connectors are the main source of resistance in the circuits. They rely on the small mechanical force of the circular brass female portion to establish contact with the inner male. Brass is not a very good spring material it likes to deform instead of act like a spring. So with a little bit of vibration it becomes loose and probably is relying on the plastic around it to keep pressure on the inner bullet.

Also the crimps have gotten corroded over the years and can have alot of resistance.

Basically 70%-90% (my educated guess) of all electrical charging problems develop from poor connections and the Bullets lead the list of offenders.

 

[Jagir]

The bullets connectors are the main source of resistance in the circuits. They rely on the small mechanical force of the circular brass female portion to establish contact with the inner male. Brass is not a very good spring material it likes to deform instead of act like a spring. So with a little bit of vibration it becomes loose and probably is relying on the plastic around it to keep pressure on the inner bullet.

Also the crimps have gotten corroded over the years and can have alot of resistance.

Basically 70%-90% (my educated guess) of all electrical charging problems develop from poor connections and the Bullets lead the list of offenders.

Thanks, will switch them up. Does this mean I should replace all the bullets with spades?

 

[BassCliff]

Thanks, will switch them up. Does this mean I should replace all the bullets with spades?

Hi,

I replaced all the bullet connectors in the charging system with spade connectors. The rest I cleaned up. Also clean your fuse box, ignition switch, solenoid connections, all ground connections, etc. Also, run the ground wire from the r/r unit directly to the negative terminal of the battery.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[posplayr]

Similar to what Cliff says at the least replace bullets with spades:

3 stator wires that go to the R/R (I solder my wires direct with no spade connector)

1 red wire from the R/R to the harness

1 red wire from the fuse box to the battery

The ring lug on the R/R ground should go to the closest single point ground (collection point for all grounds ; frame, R/R, battery, and harness).

The blue underlined one is often over looked (guilt as charged)

 

[Jagir]

I did not get too far along, but once again, my readings on the multimeter did not look like they correspond with anything I have read they should be. Does this mean that my stator is the problem?

According to Mekanix's tests:
at 5000 rpm I got 15.78 volts, 171 volts and 041 volts (maybe my decimal place was in the wrong spot?) As I re-read it i am wondering if i had all 3 unplugged...

According to the stator papers test Step#1 (11.59volts), I was good to move to Step 2 (Positive lead Voltage drop). During this test, I got some crazy readings:
At 5000 RPM, the multimeter was jumping all over the place 6.7...8...10.7.. (see video here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/75842363@N00/4610487312/).

I kind of hope that all this means its the stator, or am i doing something wrong? Are there other tests that i should do?

 

[posplayr]

I did not get too far along, but once again, my readings on the multimeter did not look like they correspond with anything I have read they should be. Does this mean that my stator is the problem?

According to Mekanix's tests:
at 5000 rpm I got 15.78 volts, 171 volts and 041 volts (maybe my decimal place was in the wrong spot?) As I re-read it i am wondering if i had all 3 unplugged...

According to the stator papers test Step#1 (11.59volts), I was good to move to Step 2 (Positive lead Voltage drop). During this test, I got some crazy readings:
At 5000 RPM, the multimeter was jumping all over the place 6.7...8...10.7.. (see video here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/75842363@N00/4610487312/).

I kind of hope that all this means its the stator, or am i doing something wrong? Are there other tests that i should do?

The volt meter should not be jumping around that way, see if you can borrow another meter.

In the Setp 2 You should have very low voltage drops well less than 1 V . I would suspect your meter; does it have a battery?

 

[Jagir]

thanks for questioning the tools. As i flick the switch to DCV it wanders up. with nothing attached.

Will pick up a new one tomorrow and do some more testing.

 

[Mekanix]

Your meter is fine IF :

1 battery is good in the meter (9V)

2 when you switch it to DC touch both meter leads together and it should go to 0.000 and stay there as long as,

I have that same meter with no problems Electromagnetic interference.

3 your meter leads might be broken , so just set your meter to OHM (resistance) Press the top left button twice and it should be set for continuity. Now just touch the two leads together and you will get a solid BEEEEEEP , That means your leads are good.

4 Set it to DCV and press the Range button twice, IT will show 00.00 V

5 touch the leads on the battery , You should get a solid 11-12 V without any flickering.


I think the meter is fine but I could be wrong. Do the above to prove it does work.


I don't know what you were measuring in that video.



Here is what you are trying to prove

1 the stator is not shorted,
- to its own wires
- to ground.
- And at 5000 RPM, If you measure between one wire to the other and then to the other you get 75 AC Volts or more. ( you have to unhook them from the RR) If your not sure which ones I mean there are only two bundles coming from beside the sproket cover. One goes forward and one goes back. you want the one going back that only has 3 wires in it.


2 The RR is:
A. Rectifying, (turning the ac voltage from the stator to a rippled DC voltage)
B. Regulating, ( No mater how much AC voltage is coming in, It will not allow more than 14.5 VDC to come out the red wire)



3 Your wiring is good:

So you could have a bad ground from your frame to the RR or from the frame to the battery or from the frame to wiring harness Or from the Red RR wire to the battery.

So first things first: (checking for stray voltage and current loss)
This means that if you connect a wire from one spot to another and run power through it, that it can't carry all that power from where it started to where it ended. If you put your meter on one end of the wire and the other end of the wire, You might get as much as 2 Volts and you should realistically get less than .5 V.


With the bike running just slightly above idle ( 1300-+) put one lead on the battery positive and one on the negative, ( which one goes where doesn't matter your only looking for a number)

You get : XX.XX DCV (11.56v- 13.5) No more than 14.5 ever.


Leave the one on the positive and put the second one on the red wire coming from the RR. Leave the wire from the RR connected to the bikes red wire and just poke into the bullet connector until it gives you a steady reading.

You get : XX.XX DCV ( 0.00-1 vdc )

- you might get more, If so that means your bullet conectors or that red wire is not allowing enough power through it.
And your charging system is good and the power is just not getting where it should.



Next stray voltage to ground:

- Put one lead on a frame ground and with the bike still running put the other one on the where ever the black wire from the RR is going to ,

You get : XX.XX DCV ( 0.00-1 vdc ) Any more means bad connections.


Then from frame to the battery and you should get the same number as before

You get : XX.XX DCV ( 0.00-1 vdc )


The ground on these bikes are terible, so its a good idea to make a wire and connect it from the ground that the RR is connected to all the way to where the battery negative is connected to.





What do you get from :

Battery voltage :


stator wire 1 to 2 :
stator wire 1 to 3 :
stator wire 2 to 3 :


Battery + to bullet connector on RR' red wire:

RR Ground to Frame ground :

RR ground to battery - :


RR Ground to RR red wire :


Thanks ,

 

[Jagir]

Your meter is fine IF :

1 battery is good in the meter (9V)

2 when you switch it to DC touch both meter leads together and it should go to 0.000 and stay there as long as,

I have that same meter with no problems Electromagnetic interference.

3 your meter leads might be broken , so just set your meter to OHM (resistance) Press the top left button twice and it should be set for continuity. Now just touch the two leads together and you will get a solid BEEEEEEP , That means your leads are good.

4 Set it to DCV and press the Range button twice, IT will show 00.00 V

5 touch the leads on the battery , You should get a solid 11-12 V without any flickering.


I think the meter is fine but I could be wrong. Do the above to prove it does work.


I don't know what you were measuring in that video.

THanks for the elucidation.
Tomorrow I will pick up another multimeter AND a new battery and test the first multimeter. The leads on it are goofy pointy things, I want to switch those to clips anyway. The OHM test always checks out, even when i flail the wires around which is why I thought it was ok, but I would like to be extra sure.

Hopefully I can also haul the bike out and do the tests. Sorry neighbours:-\\\

the video is: black multimeter lead to battery+, red multimeter lead to red output of R/R.

 

[Jagir]

this test...

 

[Jagir]

led me to this.

 

[Jagir]

I'll make a whole new fusebox spider tonight and put it on tomorrow.