confusing electrical problem..please help!!

[abnorm999]

ok i got a 1982 suzuki GS850GL(Z) over the past few weeks i noticed my battery running dead so i gave it a full charge and installed it back in the bike. with the engine running i connected a volt meter to the battery and it read 12.24V..i revved it up to almost redline and it only went to 12.75-12.90 but never above 13. so at first i was just thinking that i had some corrosion in the wires causing resistance somewhere in the system..no big deal. yesterday i got on my bike and started it up..ran for 3 seconds then stopped..suddenly the negative cable catches fire. i disconnected the battery and put out the fire. i thought it was very odd as i am a car mechanic and have never seen a negative cable burn unless it somehow manages to short to hot. so i replace the neg cable cross my fingers and start my bike back up...now it starts without catching fire but when i try to drive the bike it has no power at all and dies at idle but does not feel like it is misfiring..my only guess is that the diodes (rectifier bridge?) burned out somehow and shot (or is shooting?) A/C volts thru the system. anyone know anything about this? i can still find the parts but they are expensive and i would rather not make a $300 mistake by replacing the wrong part. thanks for your help people. oh also no fuses blown

 

[bonanzadave]

Could be more than one issue. Sounds like its not charging. Gotta be closer to 14 vdc. Have you checked the battery voltage after the cable replacement ? Might wanna breeze through the stator papers and start cleaning all the connectors and ground points. Check your battery for the correct level.

 

[trippivot]

start with a unloaded stator test.

disconnect the 3 ac wire leads yellow white with a blue tracer and green wire. I think that are the colors in there. anyhow the 3 wires that go under the sprocket cover into the starter area into the left side engine cover.

get the bike running and check AC voltage lead to lead 1-2,2-3,1-3 not to ground but between the wires only.

ac is usually twice what dc is so at idle 26 ~ 30 ACV. rev it up and it should go above 70~80 ACV . what you are really looking for is equality of the 3 values. well within maybe 15% but if you have 1 weak leg or 2 there is the lack of primary ac voltage which will make the charging system a little weak (ie: 12.7~12.9 DCV @ redline)

doing that tells you if the stator and rotor are making all the electricity it is supposed to or not.

next comes rectifing and controlling the electro motive force. that involves a diode test in forward and reverse bias on all 6 diodes in the rectifier.(another story after checking to see if all 3 phases are active in the generating stage of the charging system)

and finally storing EMF in the battery.. batteries cause the strangest problems when there is a fault in the cells.

tidy the main ground strap up,-- all the grounds up while you are at it. that is important as the positive cable if not more.

 

[abnorm999]

thanks trippivot...unfortunality i do not own a car and my motorcycle is my only means to get around. i traded a dude i used to work with a pice of sh*t rusted AK-47 for the GS..best trade i ever made..that was like 2.5 years ago and the GS never gave me any trouble what-so-ever even after daily city driving all that time. anyways i start a new job on monday and i cannot be late to it so i have to get this bike up and running ASAP. i had already taken the stator out (dumped all the oil out all over the driveway) and the diodes out and ran all over town trying to find someone who could diag. them for me. none of the shops that rebuild startors/alternators around here said they could not test the stator or rewire it and had no idea how to test the diodes (seriously i went to 3 shops) so then i started hitting up motorcycle repair shops but i live in tampa, fl and it seems that every shop in this town caters to newer sport bikes, so i got no answers there eather. heh when i put new tires on it i had to go to 4 different shops just to find someone who knew how to change the rear tire because of the driveshaft. no joke. anyways i guess im going to reinstall the stator and use RTV to seal it up because i cannon get a new gasket in time and then i will repost the results from the AC test.

 

[trippivot]

I have a performance shop here in IOWA I have all gaskets and stuff for your bike.

I have a new rebuilt stator I have R&Rs' I can give you wiring instructions

get a simple 10$ meter from radio shack I'll give you detailed instructions to diagnose your equipment.

pm me for my phone # if you need a helping guide. step by step.

 

[abnorm999]

damn i wish there were people as friendly as you down here in tampa. you couldnt even get a push start around here if you needed one. i do have a multimeter and i am ASE cert for electrical with cars..but its been a few years as i work mostly as a heavyline mechanic. i was not able to find a wiring diagram for my year (1982) but i was able to find one for a 1980 and it seems to be exactly the same. lets see on my bike..the rectifier is a nippondenso part number 32800-45210 and has one red wire, one yellow wire, one white with blue tracer, one white with red tracer, and one ground black with yellow tracer grounding itself to the rectifier body. the stator has one yellow wire, one white with green tracer, and one white with blue tracer. if you could give me any information about these parts that would f*cking rock. if you do have these parts in stock would i be able to order them from you over the net? do you have a website or just a paypal account? i would be more than happy to spend my money at your shop if you can send them down this way. thanks again dude

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

Do as told, check the stator, check all connections, Reg test is a hit or miss not a 100% check.. If that doesn't fix it
Go get a used Honda reg & install it.

 

[BassCliff]

Greetings and Salutations!

Greetings and Salutations!

Hi Mr. abnorm999,

It's good practice to check and clean every electrical connection and ground on the entire bike, from the headlight bucket to the tail light. The larger connections (battery posts, frame grounds, solenoid, etc) I scrub with a little wire brush. The rest I use contact cleaner and take them apart and put them together a few times to make sure the contact area is making a good connection. A very small wire brush might come in handy for the bullet connectors. Then I've replaced all of the bullet connectors in the charging system with blade connectors. Dielectric grease is good to use on all the connectors, helps keep them from oxidizing. Corrosion causes extra resistance. Extra resistance causes heat. Heat causes fire.

There's lots of good 850G lovin' on my website. Please check it out, download a manual, enjoy the pictorial guides, etc, after you've experienced your mega-welcome! :dancing:

Oops, the mega-welcome will be in the next post due to the 10,000 character limit.

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[BassCliff]

Hello again!

Hello again!

Dear fellow GS rider,

Let it be known that on this day you are cordially and formally welcomed to the GSR Forum as a Junior Member in good standing with all the rights and privileges thereof. Further let it be known that your good standing can be improved with pictures (not you, your bike)![FONT=Arial, sans-serif] [/FONT]

Perhaps you've already seen these, but I like to remind all the new members. In addition to the carb rebuild series, I recommend visiting the In The Garage section via the GSR Homepage and check out the Stator Papers. There's also a lot of great information in the Old Q&A section. I have some documentation on my little BikeCliff website to help get you familiar with doing routine maintenance tasks (note that it is 850G-specific but many tasks are common to all GS bikes). Other "user contributed" informational sites include those of Mr. bwringer, Mr. tfb and Mr. robertbarr. And if your bike uses shims for valve adjustments, send an email to Mr. Steve requesting a copy of his Excel spreadsheet that helps you keep track of clearances, shim sizes and other service work.

These are some edited quotes from one of our dear beloved gurus, Mr. bwringer, with ideas on basic needs (depending on initial condition), parts, and accessories.

***********Quoted from Mr. bwringer************
Every GS850 [and most other models] has (or had) a set of well-known issues that MUST be addressed before you have a solid baseline for further troubleshooting. It's a vintage bike, and it's quite common (as in, every single GS850 I have had contact with) that there are multiple problems that have crept up and slowly gotten worse over the years. It's not like a newer vehicle, where there's generally one problem at a time.

These common issues are:

1. Intake O-rings (install NEW OEM or Viton only - common nitrile O-rings will quickly deteriorate from heat)
2. Intake Boots (install NEW -- these cannot be repaired)
3. Valve clearances (more important than most people think)
4. Carb/airbox boots
5. Airbox sealing
6. Air filter sealing
7. Petcock (install a NEW one)
8. On '79 models, install new points or Dyna electronic ignition (or at least verify that the old points are working correctly)
9. On all models, it's fairly common to have problems with the spark plug caps. These are $3 or $4 each, and often worth replacing if you're keeping the stock coils/wires.
10. Stock exhaust with NO leaks or holes -- good seals at the head and at the junctions underneath.

Carburetor maintenance:

Replace the intake boot o-rings, and possibly the intake boots. Here's the procedure:
http://bwringer.com/gs/intakeorings.html
Here's an overview of what happens with this particular problem:
http://cycleorings.com/intake.html
You'll also want to examine the boots between the carbs and the airbox. There's a good chance these are OK, but check them over.
And finally, if things still aren't exactly right, you'll want to order a set of o-rings for BS carbs from the GS owner's best friend, Robert Barr:
http://cycleorings.com
Once you receive these rare rings of delight, then you'll want to thoroughly clean and rebuild your carburetors. Here are step-by-step instructions that make this simple:
http://thegsresources.com/gs_carbrebuild.htm

OEM Parts/Online Fiches:

I would definitely double and triple the recommendations to use Cycle Recycle II and Z1 Enterprises as much as possible. These guys are priceless resources. Z1 tends to have slightly better prices, CRC2 has a wider range of goodies available. If you're near Indy and can bring in an old part to match, CRC2 has a vast inventory of used parts.
http://denniskirk.com - Put in your bike model and see what they have.
http://oldbikebarn.com - seems to be slowly regaining a decent reputation, but it's still caveat emptor. They don't have anything you can't get elsewhere at a better price anyway.
http://www.babbittsonline.com/ - Decent parts prices. Spendy shipping. Don't give you part numbers at all. Useful cross-reference if you obtain a part number elsewhere. Efficient service.
http://bikebandit.com - Fastest. Middlin' prices. Uses their own parts numbering system to obfuscate price comparisons -- can be very confusing for large orders. Cheapest shipping, so total cost usually isn't too bad.
http://flatoutmotorcycles.com - Slow. Cheapest parts prices, crazy shipping costs. Don't expect progress updates or much communication. Real Suzuki part numbers.
http://alpha-sports.com - Exorbitant parts prices. Different type of fiche interface that's quite useful at times, especially with superceded part numbers. Real parts numbers. Shipping cost and speed unknown due to insane, unholy pricing.

Stainless Bolts, Viton o-rings, metric taps, dies, assorted hard-to-find supplies and materials, etc:

http://mcmaster.com - Fast, cheap shipping, good prices. No order minimum, but many items like bolts come in packs of 25 or 50. Excellent resource.
http://motorcycleseatcovers.com - Great quality, perfect fit (on original seat foam), and available for pretty much every bike ever made. Avoid the textured vinyl -- it's perforated.
http://newenough.com - You DO have riding gear, don't you? Great clearances, always outstanding prices and impeccable service.
***************End Quote**********************

Additional parts/info links:

GSR Forum member Mr. duaneage has great used upgraded Honda regulator/rectifiers for our bikes. Send him a PM.
New electrical parts:
http://stores.ebay.com/RMSTATOR or http://www.rmstator.com/
http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/index.php
http://www.electrosport.com/
For valve cover and breather gaskets, I recommend Real Gaskets (reusable silicon):
http://www.realgaskets.com
Carolina Cycle
http://www.carolinacycle.com
Ron Ayers Motorsports
http://www.ronayers.com
MR Cycles
http://www.mrcycles.com
Moto Grid
http://www.motogrid.com
Salvage/Used
http://www.ricepaddymotorcycles.com
http://www.ozpowersports.com/
If all else fails, try this:
http://www.used-motorcycle-parts.org/
Used bike buying checklists:
http://www.amadirectlink.com/roadride/Riderresc/checklist.asp
http://www.clarity.net/~adam/buying-bike.html
Lots of good info/pictures here:
http://www.suzukicycles.org
http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Motorcycle_Wiki
http://www.bikepics.com
Basic motorcycle maintenance/repair:
http://www.dansmc.com/mc_repaircourse.htm
Online Clymer manuals:
http://search.ebscohost.com/ Click on "Small Engine Repair" then "Motorcycles". User=library, password=library. Note: This link may not work if you are on a school campus.


Thanks for joining us. Keep us informed of your progress. There's lots of good folk with good experience here.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
(The unofficial GSR greeter)

Click here to visit BikeCliff's website.

 

[Redman]

Welcome to GSR,

Good that you have meter and know how to use it.

Yah, Like Trippivot say, now that you have checked the charging voltage and found it deffiecent, next big thing to check is the the AC voltage output of the stator (with it disconnected).

The stator papers (found back on the GSR main website, not the forumn) describes that test and several others.
Other big test is to test the R/R (you calling bridge) with the diode function of a meter. If your meter has that.

If you want/need to use bike, depending on how far you have to go, and if you can chance it without headlight.... pull the headlight fuse, unplug the R/R and the stator ... and get it back on charger as soon as you get back home.

Yes, probably not going to find a dealer to work on your 20-25+ year old bike, heck, even 12-15 years old is difficult. Need to find an indepanedant shop. Or better yet, work on it yourself.

Let us know what more you find.

 

[abnorm999]

thanks guys...i RTVed the stator housing and refilled the oil. only problem is the bike dosent want to start at all now (with diodes removed) it cranks very slowly even though there is a full charge. electrical problems always **** me off...

 

[abnorm999]

actually now that im looking at www.oldbikebarn.com i find that i could get a new higher output stator and a new diode for about $250 total with shipping. i might as well get both because its probably a good idea to replace them anyways as the bike is old as hell..but definately worth droppin some money on..the engine is solid. plus i had expected to spend around that much anyways.

 

[JMHJ]

I'd hate to have all my transportation eggs in the basket of one of these antique bikes, that are hard to have worked on in a pinch. Though when everything's set up right on them, they're quite dependable. Best wishes with getting the bike roadable for the new job.

 

[abnorm999]

thanks man..actually im fine only riding an old bike. down here in florida you do not have to pay motorcycle insurance and gas is expensive so with all the money you save when the bike does break down you just take a cab or buy a new one (R.I.P. my little GN400). and then all you have to do is keep a change of cloths in a your saddle bags because florida as ya'll know, rains alot. anyways like i said my current GS850 is very solid..it had only 7,600miles on it when i picked it up from its one owner. the guy said he had a mid life chrisis back in the 80's that apairently only lasted 8000 miles befor it was garaged up. so it did need a little t.l.c at first..breaks tires, fluid changes, carbs cleaned, custom paint and saddle bags but after that like i said 2 and a half years and its given me no problems except for one broken throttle cable some time ago..oh and its always had a tendency to pop out of first into nuetral but it actually feels pretty good to start off in second. its just annoying when these problems suddenly spring up on you..and taking a city bus or cab to work is not nearly as fun as a bike.

 

[JMHJ]

Good you've got an alternative to the bike. I see the point about money saved making it not too painful to have to use once in a while.

I picked my '83 850 not quite 3 years ago from the original owner with 7500 miles on it. Funny about the 8000-mile mid-life crisis. My guy must've bought his younger because he looked to be only in his early 40s if that. The title said '86 so he got it as a leftover I'm thinking. Fortunately he'd had the bike serviced in prep for the sale (he had bought a Harley somewhere along the line), so it was ready to go when I got it. He had to look around to find someone to do the work, as the shops didn't much want to mess with it (Chicago area). He did overlook some things, as I've had to replace the reg/rect (I did the expensive Electrex one), and the gas tank needs to be treated for rust. I'm over 20k miles now, with no sign of the pre mid-life crisis letting up .