continued overheating

[Anonymous]

He may have been going by this chart from NKG:

http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

I'm still :?

 

[earlfor]

I dont have any experience with HD exhausts, so the best I can do is a educated GUESS. I would think that if going from 115's to 117.5 produced a change from clean white to light grey, then using 122.5's would result in something in the tan to brownish range. I would make that change.

Earl

You think 122.5's would be too much for my 1000? I went up from 115's to 117.5's and moved my plastic spacer on the needles, synced to dead level, and I'm still lean across the board. (all four cylinders). Light grey lean, improved from perfectly clean white lean.

Stock intake, HD exhaust.

 

[Detman101]

Yep, Thats where I'm at.

Mikuni 122.5 main jets.


Dm of mD

 

[Anonymous]

Well I installed the 122.5s, and took the bike out for a ride. It acted normally in all gears until...

...In fifth gear at about 5200 RPM I am at 85 MPH, and the bike always eagerly pull past this if I let it. However, with the new jets at about 5400 to 5500 RPM it stops pulling as hard and wont rev quite up to 6000. I tried to see if I could pass this point and have the bike start pulling again, but it didn't seem to want to.

Also, the temp still got upto its normal 250 plus, and the ceramic on the plugs is no different than with the 115 jets. However, their was a fair bit more black down inside the plug, and up the metal sides than I remeber from before.

Should I go up another size on the mains or what? I am totally out of my experience with these symptoms and with altering carb setups.

Thanks,
Billy Miles

 

[earlfor]

Dang Billy! You have me scratching my head now.

Have you had any problem with gas getting in your crankcase oil.
Oil ever smell like gas when you open the filler cap.
How many quarts of oil do you put in the bike when you change oil?
Have you installed a fairing (upper or lower) or any accessories that could block airflow to the engine?
Are you running the stock heat range spark plugs?
Have you installed an aftermarket oil cooler.
Has the bike run hot as long as you have owned it, or is it something that developed?
Has the engine started making any mechanical sounds when running that it did not previously?


If the plugs are starting to soot now, going richer on the jetting I dont believe will accomplish anything. I'm thinking on it.........................

Earl

Well I installed the 122.5s, and took the bike out for a ride. It acted normally in all gears until...

...In fifth gear at about 5200 RPM I am at 85 MPH, and the bike always eagerly pull past this if I let it. However, with the new jets at about 5400 to 5500 RPM it stops pulling as hard and wont rev quite up to 6000. I tried to see if I could pass this point and have the bike start pulling again, but it didn't seem to want to.

Also, the temp still got upto its normal 250 plus, and the ceramic on the plugs is no different than with the 115 jets. However, their was a fair bit more black down inside the plug, and up the metal sides than I remeber from before.

Should I go up another size on the mains or what? I am totally out of my experience with these symptoms and with altering carb setups.

Thanks,
Billy Miles

 

[redliner1973]

Check the air filter.....You said you wetre running an K & N type filter. I do, also, and noticed after i cleaned and 'oiled' it the bike went way lean. Seemed to keep getting leaner every day, untill the 4th day afterwards it would buck and shake. Another 5 days of trying everything, I recleaned and reoiled the filter, this time, using slightly more oil, and viola! all the difference in the world! Seems although I thought I was putting enough oil on the filter, apparently I was not, and by re oiling it, it brought the induction back to stock specs. Ran cooler, and better.

 

[Anonymous]

In response to Earl's questions:

No gas in crankcase, and it doesn't smell like fuel. I can't blow air through the needles, and petcock works. When I change oil I put in 3 quarts, and then fill to the full line. Run it for a few minutes, and then to the line again. I have only had the bike for about 1000 miles, and the temp has seemed to increase as I have had it, from raising to about 235 to the present 265. That is probably due to increasing outside temps, but yes it has always gotten hotter than it should. One thing that is happening though, when I first got the bike I would have to wait overnight to check the oil level after a moderate ride because the oil would fill the window. By morning it would be down to where it should be. Now the window stays full unless I crank the bike over for a second, which causes the oil level to lower to where it should be. Which of course has nothing to do with my lean condition(I wouldn't think), but maybe with the overheating in general.

I am using stock spark plugs (NGK D8EA). No oil cooler, and nothing to block airflow.

As far as the K&N, it only has about 1000miles since new and is very clean. Do you think I should go ahead and reoil it just to see?

Thanks everyone for the help,
Billy Miles

 

[redliner1973]

are you oiling it with the aerosol can or with the bottle that has a small spout on top? If you have a choice, use teh aerosol. Reoiling it can't hurt.

 

[Anonymous]

I used the aerosol, and reoiled even though the filter was still red. I also changed the oil, and went to Mobil1 15w50. I wasn't able to ride quite as long as usual, but the temp still rose, but not as high as normal. The plugs haven't changed with reoiling the filter though.

Should I try wrapping the filter with something to restrict airflow, just for a plug test?

Any suggestions or " :wink: experimental :wink: " advice will be taken into consideration.

Thank you,
Billy Miles

 

[earlfor]

Well Billy, after some serious pondering, I think my first impression of you having a lean mixture problem was not quite accurate. You have a high temperature problem. The cylinder head temp is high enough that a normally correct mixture is indicating a lean condition on the spark plugs. But, it is not the carburation and mixture that is the cause. The heat is causing the fuel charge to burn off too quickly. Oil is a lubricant, but it also is the primary cooling agent in these "air cooled" engines and is much more efficient at removing heat than air is. I believe you are overheating because of lack of oil flow. A malfunctioning oil pump could cause the oil to back up in the crankcase to a level above the sight window and require some time to seep back down to a normal level. (on either of my bikes, when I shut them down after a ride, it takes about 60-90 seconds for the oil level to return to normal in the sight window, but one difference is no oil shows in my window and it FILLS during that time. It is NOT over full and I am not waiting for it to DRAIN down, as with your bike) A worn oil pump chattering against its housing would also produce metal shavings. I suspect that is where the shavings you are finding are coming from.

I would REPLACE my OIL PUMP.

Earl

One thing that is happening though, when I first got the bike I would have to wait overnight to check the oil level after a moderate ride because the oil would fill the window. By morning it would be down to where it should be. Now the window stays full unless I crank the bike over for a second, which causes the oil level to lower to where it should be. Which of course has nothing to do with my lean condition(I wouldn't think), but maybe with the overheating in general.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Earl. I will as soon as possible. I really appreciate everyones help.

I will get it apart immediately, and start looking for a new oil pump.

Thanks again especially to Earl and also to everyone else,
Billy Miles

 

[Anonymous]

Well I took the oil pump out, and what I have found makes me a shoe-in for idiot of the month. I can't be positive because i did not notice the wear on the outer edge of the clutch basket until it was already apart. I think when I reassmbled the clutch sometime last month, I did not align the tabs on the gear with the notches on the back of the hub.

What I found was the front edge of the basket worn down, luckily not enough to have to replace the basket. However, I also found something else, but it may just be wear from the metal particles going through the engine. In the two tubes behind the oil pump, the metal of the case is chipping off, and the edges of the tubes need to be deburred badly.

All I can see that the basket would have rubbed on is the crankshaft as it spun. There doesn't seem to be a matching wear pattern on anything else.

So my plan is to wash everything I took apart with brake cleaner. Remove the oil pan and try to flush the tubes behind the oil pump out with :?: oil or brake cleaner :?: . Also, check the tolerances of the oil pump, and replace if necessary. File the edge of the basket smooth, and reassemble. Am I missing anything?

The only problem I have with this is that my bike overheated though not to as high a degree before I removed the clutch the first time. Also, there were fine metal particles in the oil before the clutch work as well. The tubes behind the oil pump look rough like a bad casting so I cannot be sure of the actual original source of the metal.

I will try to get some pics, but I do not know if that will be possible.

Any suggestions?,
Billy Miles

 

[earlfor]

Billy, I would be inclined to stick with flushing with oil. I keep coming back to the same two possibilities. Either the oil pump is not working, or the pickup is blocked.

One other possibility..........your guage isnt working. Although, it should be easy enough to directly measure the oil temp with a candy thermometer or baking type.



Earl

So my plan is to wash everything I took apart with brake cleaner. Remove the oil pan and try to flush the tubes behind the oil pump out with :?: oil or brake cleaner :?: . Also, check the tolerances of the oil pump, and replace if necessary. File the edge of the basket smooth, and reassemble. Am I missing anything?

The only problem I have with this is that my bike overheated though not to as high a degree before I removed the clutch the first time. Also, there were fine metal particles in the oil before the clutch work as well. The tubes behind the oil pump look rough like a bad casting so I cannot be sure of the actual original source of the metal.

I will try to get some pics, but I do not know if that will be possible.

Any suggestions?,
Billy Miles