Dead 1150 30 miles from home

[Carter Turk]

Hi all,

I was out riding on Friday heading south on a twisty road, bike seemingly happy when downshifting to 2nd to make a turn the bike dies. I had ridden about 25 miles and trickle charged the battery the day befiore. All power lights dash everything gone.

No blown fuses, reg/rect without a hint of heat, no melted wires. I've had the same stator since 1996 and the orginal 83 Katana 1100 rectifier.

Battery is about 2 weeks old. My starter has been giving problems for awhile, but never stranded me anywhere where a bump start wouldn't get me going.

5 minutes later I turn the key, dash eluminates, barely, bump and go dies again when I slow to a stop 10 miles later. Coincidentally the mileage reads 66656 when this happened.

At this point I decide to turn around, sit another 5 minutes bump, ride for 20 + miles light appears to be brighter pull into a gas station to top off bump again, this time I get a block.

I d0 this several more times and make it home.

I had other stators rewound my Marcelo's in North Hollywood, but the last one, wasn't insulated properly so I had to send it back and then it only lasted at year or so.

Checkin to see if this classic stator symptoms or reg/rect issues, before I do the tests Billy Ricks posts often. Thanks

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

Sounds like a Dead battery, you would have to charge it before
further tests could be made. Your new battery could be bad, make sure the cables are tight

 

[rkubik]

bad ground

bad ground

sounds like an intermittent connection somewhere, probably just a corroded ground of loose/corroded connector-to-wire crimp. Get out the multimeter and test resistances everywhere, pretty tedious but it does the job.

most recent issue of "Classic Motorcycle Mechanics" mag (UK) describes that very problem and solution (OK it was a Honda, but same problem).

 

[AOD]

At first it sounded like you may have melted a fuse, not blown it, which can happen when the connections get dirty and corroded. I would still suggest cleaning the fuse connections, just in case.

 

[Carter Turk]

I recently checked the wiring, cleaned the fuse panel and various connectors when installing a Dyna S.

I did not check every connector and I am totally green with multimeters. I don't know where to put the dial when doing the various tests.

Will a ground cable that is too long have any undesirable effect?

Thanks for the help

 

[kalessin]

This is not a terribly helpful post, mostly an amusing story.

I had the same thing happen in 2002, just riding up the street a block from home, and lights out, everything stops. I rolled the bike downhill, mystified. Tried turning the key a few times over the next week and a half or so, but no electrics working on the bike at all. Parked the bike and got busy with other things for a while.

A few weeks later,I grabbed a friend who also rides, and who is an Electrical Engineer, and he brought a spiffy multitester with him. I turn the key and the gauges light up, just like nothing had gone wrong. The bike started that day and the rest of the summer.

This proved to me that sometimes you just need to bring the right kind of engineer close enough to the machine and it will stop misbehaving immediately. This seems to happen a lot in my field of work, computer systems administration.

At the end of last summer, the Rick's regulator/rectifier that some previous owner had installed on the bike gave up the ghost and started shorting, thus blowing the main fuse even with the key off. I've just replaced it now, but I'm thinking it might have been involved in what was going on in 2002.

BTW, check all your fuses for continuity...

I would suggest checking the battery under load with a fresh charge... with the starter motor running, then with the engine idling. You may have a defective one.

 

[joeadams]

Sounds like what my bike did when the stator needed replaced. The first time it died, did it do so when you squeezed the clutch?

I could charge my battery up and ride for a while. Then, after the battery had drained, if it would die as soon as the revs went down, say at a stop sign or if I squeezed in the clutch in traffic. If I kept the revs above idle it ran OK. Changing the stator fixed it right up. It seems though that if you were moving when you down shifted you should have had enough momentum to keep it running.

 

[Carter Turk]

I checked a couple of the battery cells with the bubble tester before my son interupted on the 2 week old battery.

All the balls dropped to the bottom on a freshly trickle charged battery.

The shop I bought it from said my charging system may have done this, but wouldn't my rectifier be somewhat hot to the touch after an incident like this.

 

[earlfor]

If all the balls in the battery tester fall to the bottom, the battery is toast.
You're not going to be able to check anything in the charging system without a charged battery in good condition. A new battery charged should show about 13 volts. Turn the multimeter to the DC volts 20 scale. Put the red tester lead on the battery pos terminal and the black tester lead on battery neg.
That will tell you battery voltage.

When the battery is charged, install it in the bike. Disconnect the 3 yellow stator wires. Set the multimeter to the AC 200v scale. AC voltage does not have polarity, so it does not matter which color meter probe is placed where relative to that. The stator has 3 yellow output wires. With them unplugged from the R/R............numbering the three yellow stator wires, 1,2 and 3, you will need to put one meter probe on 1 and the other meter probe on 2. that will check voltage in one phase. then place meter probes on wires 1 and 3, that will check the next phase and then probes to wires 2 and 3 for the final phase. With the stator disconnected, start the bike and run it to 5K rpm and check AC voltage output at each phase. You should read 80 volts AC on each phase. If you read that or anything close, your stator is OK.
If so, plug it back into the R/R.

Set your multimeter to the DC scale 20 volts. Put the red meter lead on the battery pos terminal and the black meter lead on the battery neg terminal.
Run the bike to 5K rpm. You should see a voltage between 14 and 14.8
Average is probably around 14.2-14.5. Voltage should not go beyond 14.8 except briefly if the throttle is blipped to higher rpm. voltage should hold steady regardless of rpm. (not at idle of course) The checks should be done with the headlight on high beam. If voltage is in the above ranges, you RR is fine and the problem was only a faulty battery. If voltage is not correct, then the RR is bad. Voltage higher than 14.8 volts is a faulty RR also.

No, a slightly longer than normal ground wire will not have any effect.

The temp of the RR may or may not indicate anything. If you have lost a phase in the stator, there is less output, so the RR certainly would not be hotter than normal.

Earl

I checked a couple of the battery cells with the bubble tester before my son interupted on the 2 week old battery.

All the balls dropped to the bottom on a freshly trickle charged battery.

The shop I bought it from said my charging system may have done this, but wouldn't my rectifier be somewhat hot to the touch after an incident like this.

 

[Carter Turk]

Would having a 60/100 watt bulb make any difference on testing? Should I run low beam since it stock high beam?

I'll give these tests a whirl.

Thanks again for the humble advice.

 

[earlfor]

The 1150 has a 330 watt stator. Unless you have a bunch of additional lights, I dont see why you would have a problem with the current draw as far as the charging system is concerned. I would be more concerned about the headlight switch. But then, if the headlight is on a relay, that isnt even a problem either.

Probably a good idea for checking purposes to check voltage on both beam settings. may make a difference.

Earl

Would having a 60/100 watt bulb make any difference on testing? Should I run low beam since it stock high beam?

I'll give these tests a whirl.

Thanks again for the humble advice.

 

[Carter Turk]

Well I attempted to do the test you described Earl.

After noticing under one of the multiple wire sleeves a melted connector that was not melted a few weeks back when I installed the Dyna S.

It was the white wire with red stripe coming from the rectifier. It also appears I may in the past, connected another unmelted white wire with red stripe from another wiring harness, but it seems to be a smaller gauge, which I know is not good and probably melted that connector.

The one w/r wire coming off the rectifier appears to be 14 gauge and the other w/r wire on the other side of the connector going to the handlebar is 16. I pulled down the electical tape where it ties into the larger wiring harness and it looks like 16 gauge there as well.

Anyway back to the stator test.

My Radio Shack meter has indents for 10-50-250-1000 ACV. Can I be anywhere inbetween the indents or do I have to use the 250 indent?

I realize this is like an adult talking to an infant, but thats where I'm at electrically speaking.

As far a putting the probe on the three yellow wires coming from the stator is that the side I'm putting the probe on or the side the 3 yellow wires are connected to?

I did this both ways with bike running probe on 1 and the other on 2 with no reading. I revved to 5000 rpms momentarily to see no reading.

I stopped there and did not check 1-3 or 2-3.

One other question, I have the red and black leads plugged into the bottom receptacles on the Multimeter. There are two other receptacles below the ohms adjust dial. One says output the other DC1000V. Are these ever used for motorcycle applications?

Thanks again for any advice out there

 

[earlfor]

Ok Carter, to make it easier for both of us, I will add my comments after yours with a ************* before and a ********** after my comment.

Well I attempted to do the test you described Earl.

After noticing under one of the multiple wire sleeves a melted connector that was not melted a few weeks back when I installed the Dyna S.
*********** most likely due to something shorting out*******

It was the white wire with red stripe coming from the rectifier. It also appears I may in the past, connected another unmelted white wire with red stripe from another wiring harness, but it seems to be a smaller gauge, which I know is not good and probably melted that connector.
******** probably a shorted RR****


The one w/r wire coming off the rectifier appears to be 14 gauge and the other w/r wire on the other side of the connector going to the handlebar is 16. I pulled down the electical tape where it ties into the larger wiring harness and it looks like 16 gauge there as well.
********* I believe stator output leads on the 1150 are 14 guage****

Anyway back to the stator test.

My Radio Shack meter has indents for 10-50-250-1000 ACV. Can I be anywhere inbetween the indents or do I have to use the 250 indent?
******** Each stator phase should be 80 volts AC. You cant measure 80 volts on a scale that doesnt go that high. The lowest voltage scale you have that will measure 80 volts is the ACV 250 setting. Use that*****

I realize this is like an adult talking to an infant, but thats where I'm at electrically speaking.
********* it may help to try to think of electricity as being like water, they have a lot in common***



As far a putting the probe on the three yellow wires coming from the stator is that the side I'm putting the probe on or the side the 3 yellow wires are connected to?
******** You want to measure AC output. The stator is the only thing on the bike with AC output wires. So, you want to measure voltage on the stator leads. For this check, the only electrical component youre concerned with is the stator. The RR is disconnected from the stator and does not exist (so to speak)*******



I did this both ways with bike running probe on 1 and the other on 2 with no reading. I revved to 5000 rpms momentarily to see no reading.
**** Was the multimeter set to the ACV 250 scale? Was the RR unplugged from the wiring harness as it should have been? Did you have both probes connected at the same time as they must be? You should get a reading at low rpm, just not the 80 volts. Check the other two phases 13 and 2,3. One leg of the stator buring out is common, but it is usually only one leg, At worst, you should get some kind of reading on at least one of the three pairs of stator wires. If you get no reading anywhere, I would suspect youre making the connections mistakenly. If you cant get any reading with any combination on the stator output leads, let me know and we will try to figure out what youre doing, or....what I screwed up this time. LOL

Do you have the stock configuration RR on your 1150? Its the little box one with the five spade connectors sticking out in a line across the (as when looking at it mounted on the bike) bottom. If you do, looking at the connectors on the RR when its on the bike (connectors pointing down), the connector at the front of the bike is 12v DC negative output. The middle three spades are AC input. The last spade at the rear of the bike is 12v DC positive output. Or, the line of 5 spade connectors from front to back of the bike are 12v DC neg, AC, AC, AC, 12vDC pos.


I stopped there and did not check 1-3 or 2-3.
*****now go check the other two pairs. LOL


One other question, I have the red and black leads plugged into the bottom receptacles on the Multimeter. There are two other receptacles below the ohms adjust dial. One says output the other DC1000V. Are these ever used for motorcycle applications?
**** I have not had occasion to use them, I dont know about anyone else**


Recheck and lemme know.

Earl

 

[Carter Turk]

I do not have the spade version RR, actually I do have a spare one, but it's not on the bike. I have an elextrex one as well that supposedly was in worse condition than a stock one I had. It died only after a couple of years of use.

I have the stock 83 1100 SD Katana wiring harness including the RR on the bike.

As far as the 14 gauge wire on the w/r coming from the RR, should the entire wire running to the handlebar be 14 as well?

I might not get to test till Friday so I'll share the results then.

Thanks Carter

 

[earlfor]

I will take a guess the stock Kat witing harness is 16 guage, so I dont see any gain in changing that.

When I got my 1150, one of the first things I did was delete the lighting circuit charging loop. To do this, you need to connect the stator directly to the RR and NOT to the wiring harness. The original harness leads that were connected are now capped of and "dead ends". Connections now are 3 stator yellow wires to the 3 yellow RR wires. RR black to battery neg and RR red to battery pos. Your lighting/switches, etc will work normally.

Earl

I do not have the spade version RR, actually I do have a spare one, but it's not on the bike. I have an elextrex one as well that supposedly was in worse condition than a stock one I had. It died only after a couple of years of use.

I have the stock 83 1100 SD Katana wiring harness including the RR on the bike.

As far as the 14 gauge wire on the w/r coming from the RR, should the entire wire running to the handlebar be 14 as well?

I might not get to test till Friday so I'll share the results then.

Thanks Carter

 

[Carter Turk]

I have yet to test the bike fully. I tryed the 2-3 connection with no reading again at moderate revs. 2-3 leads from the stator ACV 250 setting.

I did wire as you stated, directly to the rectifier, eliminating the lighting loop.

I rode it today, with no issues, but if was a short 30 mile ride with one stop and restart.

I have a large family living next door, so finding a moment to rev to 5000 rpms is a little dicey.

Kinda like the opening scene is Worlds Fastest Indian at 6 in the morning. Great movie by the way.

 

[earlfor]

When you get a chance, check the stator AC output on all three phases. with your only checking one phase and getting a reading of zero, I am still not certain you're making the connection correctly. although, I dont know how you could incorrectly connect two wires to a meter. I've never seen a stator simultaneously lose output on all three phases. I guess it could happen though.
If you get a reading on either of the other two phases, we at least know you have the meter hooked up correctly and can be certain the stator is bad. Stators arent cheap, so it would be nice to be positive its faulty before buying another one.

Earl

I have yet to test the bike fully. I tryed the 2-3 connection with no reading again at moderate revs. 2-3 leads from the stator ACV 250 setting.

 

[spartanpele]

I'm very, very interested in this thread because this is exactly whats happening to me. (See my Sunday adventure thread in the common forum).

My 83' 750 did the exact same thing yesterday. I ended up having to bring back a second freshly charged battery to make it home. Once home, I checked the volts while sitting (13), and then when idling...dropped to 11....etc.) Obviously its not charging.

I then removed the 3 wires from the stator and did the exact same test you mentioned...and all three came back zero! So I have the exact same problem.

This morning I ordered a new stator from ElectroSport. The prior owner didn't seem overly bright with cycles and I replaced the old original starter two weeks ago, so I'm pretty sure the original stator has never been replaced.

The bummer about this, besides the cost is that I had just replaced the oil last weekend, and now I'll have to redrain and do it again in order to take off the left side cover to get to the stator.

...Please let me know how your big bike situation works out and if replacing the stator fixes it!

 

[Boondocks]

...The bummer about this, besides the cost is that I had just replaced the oil last weekend, and now I'll have to redrain and do it again in order to take off the left side cover to get to the stator....

A little oil will come out when the stator cover is removed, but it won't drain the crankcase since it's above that level. You don't need to drain your oil before you replace the stator, just top it off to replace the amount released from the removal of the cover.

It will help to keep excess oil from draining if your bike is leveled, as on a centerstand. If you could lean it to the right by bracing it against a wall, it might even be better.

 

[Carter Turk]

spartanpele,

You're a little farther along than I . I have yet to find a moment to test the third leg, but the other 2 are showing zero as well.

I spent a few hours with the fairing off checking my ignition switch and noticed the grey wire was rather corroded. I spent some painstaking minutes, more like an hour trying to remove the female flat connector from its housing to graft a better wire.

That little brass tang that holds it in place was giving me fits.

I may get it sorted by the weekend, but would feel better if mechanic buddy takes a look to confirm my testing.

Boondocks is right about leaning the bike, it works. I took off my oil filter plate on a bank with the front wheel pushed up on a hill when my oil cooler lines touched the exhaust pipe on a ride 250 miles from home.