G
Guest
Guest
Fantastic post! I'm makin' this for my next adjustment. Don't let the naysayers bother you, there are some in every crowd.
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T
TiiMuch
Guest
Hey thanks.
Yes.
Naysayers.
Im certain someone/anyone could post just a picture of a cartoon baby unicorn with a rainbow behind it and someone would have a negative comment or be offended.
(Im on my phone. Can someone try and we can test my idea?!).
Ive been on net forums for a long time now.
If you read enough posts and/or get flamed innapropriately you figure out who to ignore.
Not respond to at least.
In this case I find it interesting that an "engineer" would suggest that his "feeling" method would be superior to a method that uses the very mechanical instrument that would be used to verify the measurement numerically.
So to continue to try and be a positive contributor here let me suggest this TurboJohn.
We/someone/anyone could have a "lash off"
You lash your valves using feeler guages. Then use the method I described.
And measure your results each time.
In my experience with the GS1100 16v engine. Valve clearance adusting with feeler guages the working space was tight. The lock down screw and rocker tip would sometimes but not always effectively seize together during the procedure. I found it aggrevating.time consuming and inaccurate.
Yes.
Naysayers.
Im certain someone/anyone could post just a picture of a cartoon baby unicorn with a rainbow behind it and someone would have a negative comment or be offended.
(Im on my phone. Can someone try and we can test my idea?!).
Ive been on net forums for a long time now.
If you read enough posts and/or get flamed innapropriately you figure out who to ignore.
Not respond to at least.
In this case I find it interesting that an "engineer" would suggest that his "feeling" method would be superior to a method that uses the very mechanical instrument that would be used to verify the measurement numerically.
So to continue to try and be a positive contributor here let me suggest this TurboJohn.
We/someone/anyone could have a "lash off"
You lash your valves using feeler guages. Then use the method I described.
And measure your results each time.
In my experience with the GS1100 16v engine. Valve clearance adusting with feeler guages the working space was tight. The lock down screw and rocker tip would sometimes but not always effectively seize together during the procedure. I found it aggrevating.time consuming and inaccurate.
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Ever heard of backlash in gearing? Same applies on screws. How far can you turn the nut without affecting the depth? There has to be backlash else there would be no thread clearance to rotate the nut. The finer the thread the more backlash .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backlash_(engineering)
Having become relatively proficient adjusting valves on my 1100ED I understand the frustration as trying to adjust valves with a set of needle nose vice grips and a flat feeler; it is difficult. Buy the correct tools and it becomes much easier and certainly predictable to the point that while patience is required there is little difficulty to warrant frustration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backlash_(engineering)
Having become relatively proficient adjusting valves on my 1100ED I understand the frustration as trying to adjust valves with a set of needle nose vice grips and a flat feeler; it is difficult. Buy the correct tools and it becomes much easier and certainly predictable to the point that while patience is required there is little difficulty to warrant frustration.
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I'll be a little more clear. The relatively large backlash of the fine pitched thread of the adjuster screw is what causes the difficulty. There are actually two cumulative backlash errors. The screw in the rocker and the nut on the screw. The lower end of the screw is being pulled down by the rocker and the upper end is being pulled up by the tightening nut.
Even with a feeler gauge, when you go to tighten the nut, the square headed screw turns with the nut. The uncertainty of whether what side of the thread you are on is what makes this loosening method difficult.
What I have found to work very reliable relies on a simple trick. You lightly turn the screw and the nut down onto the feeler gauge. Make sure that the proper thickness feeler slides smoothly but not loosely. Check with the next size up to make sure that it will not go in at all.
THIS IS CRITICAL: Turn the square screw head with the proper adjuster tool while turning the nut in the opposite direction by equal amounts.
This does a couple of things.
1.) it maintains the zero clearance inside of the threads (top and bottom),
2.) it adds to the preload in equal and opposite directions of forces and thread deflections.
This tends to minimize any moving of the screw and nut in the same direction (which will happen if the square headed screw holding tool is not strong)
and more importantly, the ability to twist the screw while you turn the nut is required to avoid changing the clearance. A tool mounted in wood or the diameter of a pencil will never provide the leverage to create the same torque as the tool used to turn the nut.
As far as a "lash off", you would be the only one that could do that as using a feeler gauge I know exactly what my clearances are, you on the other hand would never know without using one.
Even with a feeler gauge, when you go to tighten the nut, the square headed screw turns with the nut. The uncertainty of whether what side of the thread you are on is what makes this loosening method difficult.
What I have found to work very reliable relies on a simple trick. You lightly turn the screw and the nut down onto the feeler gauge. Make sure that the proper thickness feeler slides smoothly but not loosely. Check with the next size up to make sure that it will not go in at all.
THIS IS CRITICAL: Turn the square screw head with the proper adjuster tool while turning the nut in the opposite direction by equal amounts.
This does a couple of things.
1.) it maintains the zero clearance inside of the threads (top and bottom),
2.) it adds to the preload in equal and opposite directions of forces and thread deflections.
This tends to minimize any moving of the screw and nut in the same direction (which will happen if the square headed screw holding tool is not strong)
and more importantly, the ability to twist the screw while you turn the nut is required to avoid changing the clearance. A tool mounted in wood or the diameter of a pencil will never provide the leverage to create the same torque as the tool used to turn the nut.
As far as a "lash off", you would be the only one that could do that as using a feeler gauge I know exactly what my clearances are, you on the other hand would never know without using one.
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T
TiiMuch
Guest
Ok. Im not going to far with this.
Ive seen/read where you will defend the side of any argument/opinion.
With a dial guage I can actually show/prove the clearance.
Case closed.
When I have a chance I will post a video.
Ive seen/read where you will defend the side of any argument/opinion.
With a dial guage I can actually show/prove the clearance.
Case closed.
When I have a chance I will post a video.
OK but I think it is you that are ignoring everything I have mentioned. I don't think a mathematical proof will help you any more than what I have already stated. You have ignored every reasonable argument
Actually at this point I'm only posting this for anybody else that might be deluded into thinking this is a "better way".
T
TiiMuch
Guest
You must be retired with nothing better to do than argue online.
Im an enthusiast looking for better/easier ways to enjoy these bikes.
I have two. And one extra motor.
Do you have any?.
And if not, then ?
You could have taken the high road and used the dial indicator idea to prove you had a reliable way to set the lash.
But as usual you argue your opinion. With no way to actually prove your "feeling method" is superior to anything.
Anything.
Hey. The Blues fest and the Fringe fest is happening here, last big summer weekend here in Canada.
You steam.
Im gonna chill.
Im an enthusiast looking for better/easier ways to enjoy these bikes.
I have two. And one extra motor.
Do you have any?.
And if not, then ?
You could have taken the high road and used the dial indicator idea to prove you had a reliable way to set the lash.
But as usual you argue your opinion. With no way to actually prove your "feeling method" is superior to anything.
Anything.
Hey. The Blues fest and the Fringe fest is happening here, last big summer weekend here in Canada.
You steam.
Im gonna chill.
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Promise?..........
J
JJ
Guest
Behave, children... LOL
I mean, even if there is a thousandth or two difference between the two methods, it's no biggie.
Sheesh......
I mean, even if there is a thousandth or two difference between the two methods, it's no biggie.
Sheesh......
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J
JJ
Guest
Yes, as an engineer, I know math as well as you do, Jim. You are ASSuming that any technique other than yours is a poor choice.
Wrong!
If they are set with an indicator, and checked/verified afterwards by the same method, they are just as good as setting them with your method, then checking afterwards with feelers.
You claimed in an earlier post that you can get as close as .00025" using feelers. I may believe .0005" at best, but no closer.
And no, .002" variation from nominal is no biggie. I don't think that .002" above or below the UL and LL is intolerable.
Don't you think the factory engineers built in a safety factor when they calculated the recommended settings?
.001mm difference between two feelers used to set the clearance. That means that the maximum error would be between 0.0005mm and 0.0000mm
standard deviation is .0005/sqrt(12) = .000144 mm
2 sigma (IIRC 86 percentile) is then .00028 mm very close to my quoted 0.00025 (an engineering swag). You going for 6 sigma?
I'm not assuming anything other than engineering principles. You are assuming you can win an argument here.
The fact that you are arguing without any substantive argument says you can't.
P.S the safety factor specified by the factory has an implicit assumption that the person setting the gap is using an appropriate tool and can get the gap correct (e.g. within 0.00025mm). If they are going to error by 0.002mm (more than 10 times that) then they would have increased the gap by a similar amount. .004 mm RSSed with .00025 is still .004. RSS with .002 and you need to increase the spec to 0.006 to insure you stay larger than .004mm.
Try again......................
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J
JJ
Guest
My bad. For some reason, my mind saw INCHES. So, you think you can get within .00025mm, as in quarter of a micron?
I would never dream of winning an argument with you. Not that I couldn't, but that you'd never admit it even in the face of overwhelming evidence.
Anywho... I am not going to start beating a dead horse. You aren't worth my time.
J
JJ
Guest
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