Steve
GS Whisperer
OK, since GM doesn't talk about it, let's go to someone who is not afraid to do that...Consumer Reports.
Here is a report testing mileage and performance on a Tahoe (same as a Yukon).
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E85 Bike...why not me!
- Thread starter Dave8338
- Start date
Here is a report testing mileage and performance on a Tahoe (same as a Yukon).
.
The fuel economy of the Tahoe dropped 27 percent when running on E85 compared with gasoline, from an already low 14 mpg overall to 10 mpg (rounded to the nearest mpg). This is the lowest fuel mileage we’ve gotten from any vehicle in recent years.
They didn't even spit on it first with that one.
The FFV surge is being motivated by generous fuel-economy credits that auto-makers get for every FFV they build, even if it never runs on E85. This allows them to pump out more gas-guzzling large SUVs and pickups, which is resulting in the consumption of many times more gallons of gasoline than E85 now replaces.
And Ford does this too. It's dispicable enough they do it for the money but to brag about it in ads makes it worse.
Fuel economy, however, dropped across the board. In highway driving, gas mileage decreased from 21 to 15 mpg; in city driving, it dropped from 9 to 7 mpg.
My parents Diesel truck pulling a 10000 lb motor home gets 10 on the highway, and 22 without. What would it get if we HAD to use ethanol. And believe me, such mandates are being discussed in places like LA and other large cities for the municiple fleets. They are already pushing alternative vehicles on the gov'ment workers. The nearest E85 station to me just happens to be in the DC area.
They didn't even spit on it first with that one.
The FFV surge is being motivated by generous fuel-economy credits that auto-makers get for every FFV they build, even if it never runs on E85. This allows them to pump out more gas-guzzling large SUVs and pickups, which is resulting in the consumption of many times more gallons of gasoline than E85 now replaces.
And Ford does this too. It's dispicable enough they do it for the money but to brag about it in ads makes it worse.
Fuel economy, however, dropped across the board. In highway driving, gas mileage decreased from 21 to 15 mpg; in city driving, it dropped from 9 to 7 mpg.
My parents Diesel truck pulling a 10000 lb motor home gets 10 on the highway, and 22 without. What would it get if we HAD to use ethanol. And believe me, such mandates are being discussed in places like LA and other large cities for the municiple fleets. They are already pushing alternative vehicles on the gov'ment workers. The nearest E85 station to me just happens to be in the DC area.
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drhach
Guest
So, back to the original question. You probably would be best served installing EFI with a wide band o2 sensor. If you did that , you could program the unit for the stoichiometric point of blended ethanol. Honestly, it would get very complicated because you would need to switch the fuel system back and forth. If you don't have that flexibility, the bike will never run good. You'll either get it runnign good on E85 or E100. As was stated, the supply is so uncommon that you never know what you'll get. You're almost better off running it on straight alcohol using a dedicated system. Obviously this limits your ability to go anywhere further than the next alcohol supply. You could dedicate the bike as a commuter and fill up at home. In that case make your own ethanol (illiegal, but I won't tell).
As others have pointed out, you will see a decrease in fuel economy. This should be offset by cheaper fuel costs; but it isn't. Here in Illinois the gas is pumped up with ethanol in the winter. Most people notice a drop in fuel economy over the winter.
As all projects go, you can do it if you have the money and the time. Plan to spend a lot of both on something that probably would ultimately disappoint you though. Unless your in it purely for the learning experience.
As others have pointed out, you will see a decrease in fuel economy. This should be offset by cheaper fuel costs; but it isn't. Here in Illinois the gas is pumped up with ethanol in the winter. Most people notice a drop in fuel economy over the winter.
As all projects go, you can do it if you have the money and the time. Plan to spend a lot of both on something that probably would ultimately disappoint you though. Unless your in it purely for the learning experience.
G
gremlin
Guest
::In that case make your own ethanol (illiegal, but I won't tell).::
if i rember right you can make your own ethanol at home. the catch is you got to get a permit from the goverment and pay them road taxes. if you use it on the road. yes thay will check your tanks and your milage. if you do a search you will find thay got some farmers for using biodiesel in there trucks. england has the fry police.
if i rember right you can make your own ethanol at home. the catch is you got to get a permit from the goverment and pay them road taxes. if you use it on the road. yes thay will check your tanks and your milage. if you do a search you will find thay got some farmers for using biodiesel in there trucks. england has the fry police.
Very well stated, thank you. As this is not going to be a daily rider and that it will never see temps below 45 degrees (and that will only happen when poor planning is in place on my behalf) temp starts should not come into play. The bike would be set up to only run E85, it is available at enough locations around here that a Sunday afternoon cruise should not run me into problems. As the following excerpt mentions:
We put the Tahoe through our full series of fuel-economy and acceleration tests while running on each fuel (see our test results). When running on E85 there was no significant change in acceleration. Fuel economy, however, dropped across the board. In highway driving, gas mileage decreased from 21 to 15 mpg; in city driving, it dropped from 9 to 7 mpg.
You could expect a similar decrease in gas mileage in any current FFV. That?s because ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline: 75,670 British thermal units per gallon instead of 115,400, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. So you have to burn more fuel to generate the same amount of energy. In addition, FFV engines are designed to run more efficiently on gasoline. E85 fuel economy could approach that of gasoline if manufacturers optimized engines for that fuel.
I've always regretted converting my Mustang back to pump fuel and a couple cans of the "octo-add" type products, and it olny see's about 250-300 miles per year, I'de like to have a corn burner again. Here, E85 runs about $2.25 per gallon while dino-juice is going for $3.00 or more. It wouldn't matter to me if it cost more...it will only be a toy anyway. (Have to run the Suziki if I want to make it to work and back with any certainty) :-D
My two concerns are:
1. Will I have or be able to create enough ignition advance?
2. Will I be able to find or make gaskets and o-rings for the HARDLEY carb?
Part of the problem with the FFV's of today is that they need to be set up to run both E85 and unleaded. That will not be the case for this thing...E85 only (though I've read that E85 can contain less than the maximum amount of 85% alcohol by volume). Even at 70-80% alcohol, the bike will tend to run rich and thus remove the concern for pre ignition and hole'n a piston or two.
J
jbs80106
Guest
Do a google search on conversion...
Do a google search on conversion...
there's a company out here in Denver that allegedly sells conversion kits for most cars, approach would be the same for a bike I should think however I don't know how readily available the parts would be.
IMO however, the E85/FFV scam is the same they use to convince people to buy a hybrid or an all electric vehicle. Yeah sure, you can fill up your FFV for some 25% lower cost here in Colorado than putting in regular unleaded, but when you also get 25% of the mileage out of a tank its a wash. Add in the extra they charge you at purchase for the FFV and you're in the hole from the beginning.
Same logic works for hybrids. Buy a hybrid varient of a car and pay some $4000+ more than the standard version. By the time you get close to breaking even on the gas savings you need to sink another 3000-5000 on new batteries (which are environmentally unfriendly anyway).
In the newest cyling mag I got, they did a ride test on an all electric motorcycle offering. Performance opinions aside, they did the math and figured they'd had to ride some 186,000 miles to break even between the cost of the electric motorcycle and a standard one getting 40mpg.
Do the conversion or buy FFV if you have concerns about the damage you do to the environment. Or plant a few trees each year to counter your carbon-footprint. Don't buy one with the idea of saving money. But still plant the trees!
Just my opinion....
Do a google search on conversion...
there's a company out here in Denver that allegedly sells conversion kits for most cars, approach would be the same for a bike I should think however I don't know how readily available the parts would be.
IMO however, the E85/FFV scam is the same they use to convince people to buy a hybrid or an all electric vehicle. Yeah sure, you can fill up your FFV for some 25% lower cost here in Colorado than putting in regular unleaded, but when you also get 25% of the mileage out of a tank its a wash. Add in the extra they charge you at purchase for the FFV and you're in the hole from the beginning.
Same logic works for hybrids. Buy a hybrid varient of a car and pay some $4000+ more than the standard version. By the time you get close to breaking even on the gas savings you need to sink another 3000-5000 on new batteries (which are environmentally unfriendly anyway).
In the newest cyling mag I got, they did a ride test on an all electric motorcycle offering. Performance opinions aside, they did the math and figured they'd had to ride some 186,000 miles to break even between the cost of the electric motorcycle and a standard one getting 40mpg.
Do the conversion or buy FFV if you have concerns about the damage you do to the environment. Or plant a few trees each year to counter your carbon-footprint. Don't buy one with the idea of saving money. But still plant the trees!
Just my opinion....
/
D
drhach
Guest
If you're doing E85 only, then it should be a matter of just rejetting the existing carb. I'm not sure what stoichiometric is for a blend. I'm sure someone knows. I think E85 will also give you some of the issue that straight Ethanol will, i.e. eating rubber fuel components. You may need to convert all of your seals to viton. Not sure about ignition advance. Give it a try and let us know how it goes. Most good things come from people doing things in spite of being told that they can't.
Been doing that my whole life! :? Even designed and built a floating brick sidewalk for one client who wanted to "dock" his sidewalk in the private pond and use it as a raft out to a small island / fire pit (complete with outdoor lighting and surround sound, and not sure but there was mention of a small bar being constructed out there. :shock:
G
gremlin
Guest
you must look at the conversion factor. each time you convert something to get a fuel you lose our in the end. for ethanol there are a ton of conversions. natural gas for fertilizer, fuel for the trucks to transport and tractors. more trucks to move the ethanol to the blending plant. then it takes natural gas to make ethanol. yes thay must heat up the vat and hold the temp to distill it a few times.
The other story...
The other story...
Here is another angle on the production or better stated...LACK of production, paid out to farmers, just in this state alone, for NOT producing grain crops. Most of this type of land is best suited for growing corn. :shock:
$83.00 per acre for NOT growing anything.... :?
http://www.farmlandminnesota.com/xSites/Agents/darrellhylen/Content/UploadedFiles/Bohlman%2008a%20CRP%20Contract.pdf
In 1999, the program had already been underway for 18 years. The 1999 figures show a total enrolement of 26.3 MILLION acres (after the 3.5 million acre number is subtracted).
http://www.smallgrains.org/springwh/mar99/shortcut.htm
Even using this outdated data, and an average of $83.00 per acre, on a one year cycle, we are looking at $2,182.900.00 PER YEAR, for the program. My calculator won't compute the number for 18 (years) x 2.183 billion.
3.9 TRILLION is close.
There is another side to the story that needs to be brought to light...
The other story...
Here is another angle on the production or better stated...LACK of production, paid out to farmers, just in this state alone, for NOT producing grain crops. Most of this type of land is best suited for growing corn. :shock:
$83.00 per acre for NOT growing anything.... :?
http://www.farmlandminnesota.com/xSites/Agents/darrellhylen/Content/UploadedFiles/Bohlman%2008a%20CRP%20Contract.pdf
In 1999, the program had already been underway for 18 years. The 1999 figures show a total enrolement of 26.3 MILLION acres (after the 3.5 million acre number is subtracted).
http://www.smallgrains.org/springwh/mar99/shortcut.htm
Even using this outdated data, and an average of $83.00 per acre, on a one year cycle, we are looking at $2,182.900.00 PER YEAR, for the program. My calculator won't compute the number for 18 (years) x 2.183 billion.
3.9 TRILLION is close.
There is another side to the story that needs to be brought to light...
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gremlin
Guest
here is a bit more info on ethanol and the new form of biofuel.
i have seen what 10% ethanol does to the carbs and tanks. 100% or any higher than 10% would be harmfull. your going to start seeing the older cars die a hard death.
take a look at the link for the hole story.
http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2008-01/beyond-ethanol
Like ethanol, butanol is a type of alcohol that's made by fermenting sugars with microbes, such as bacteria or yeast. Most ethanol is produced from corn, wheat and sugarcane; the butanol on tap in Britain is made in China, from corn.
For now, making butanol is far less efficient than making ethanol in large part because it's more toxic to the microbes that ferment it. As a result, every bushel of corn yields less than 2 percent butanol, versus about 12 percent for ethanol. To change that, BP has enlisted DuPont scientists to genetically engineer hardier microbes. According to John Ranieri, head of biofuels development for DuPont, this will drastically improve butanol's yield, clearing the way for what is potentially a much more useful fuel.
Butanol has a chemical structure that provides advantages over ethanol. For instance, unlike ethanol, which is difficult to store and can corrode pipelines, butanol could make use of existing infrastructure. It could also be blended into conventional gasoline at higher rates than ethanol because of its low vapor pressure, which decreases its volatility and reduces fumes. And its higher energy content means it would provide better fuel economy than today's biofuel of choice.
i have seen what 10% ethanol does to the carbs and tanks. 100% or any higher than 10% would be harmfull. your going to start seeing the older cars die a hard death.
take a look at the link for the hole story.
http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2008-01/beyond-ethanol
Like ethanol, butanol is a type of alcohol that's made by fermenting sugars with microbes, such as bacteria or yeast. Most ethanol is produced from corn, wheat and sugarcane; the butanol on tap in Britain is made in China, from corn.
For now, making butanol is far less efficient than making ethanol in large part because it's more toxic to the microbes that ferment it. As a result, every bushel of corn yields less than 2 percent butanol, versus about 12 percent for ethanol. To change that, BP has enlisted DuPont scientists to genetically engineer hardier microbes. According to John Ranieri, head of biofuels development for DuPont, this will drastically improve butanol's yield, clearing the way for what is potentially a much more useful fuel.
Butanol has a chemical structure that provides advantages over ethanol. For instance, unlike ethanol, which is difficult to store and can corrode pipelines, butanol could make use of existing infrastructure. It could also be blended into conventional gasoline at higher rates than ethanol because of its low vapor pressure, which decreases its volatility and reduces fumes. And its higher energy content means it would provide better fuel economy than today's biofuel of choice.
G
gremlin
Guest
if you keep your eyes open you can get a bunch of info on the net.