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Electrical Gremlins! - anyone want to take a stab at this?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
  • Start date Start date
A

Anonymous

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1980 GS 550E. I got caught in the monsoon here on friday night. I had to drive about 5 miles in the rain and park the bike for an hour or so - still in the rain. The bike would not start. I mean it wouldn't even crank. I turned on and off everything I could think of. Then for some reason it started. Being new to this bike (about 600 miles) I thought that I may not have had the lights on when I tried to start it and maybe the bike has some sort of protective circuit. You know, like no lights no start, safety thing. Seemed pretty unlikely on a 1980 bike. But when it started I had other things to worry about, llike it was getting dark, still pooring cats and dogs and I had 30 miles to go on the backroads before I got home, and had NO RAINGEAR! Yeah!
Long story short, I made it home, bike never had a problem. I never road in that much rain before and never at night. Don't like that kind of adventure, won't do it again.
Anyway, here's my mind bender...
Went out to the garage the next day and tried to start the bike. Nothing. Not even a ckick. Lights work, all electrical seems fine, not even dim. But nothing when I pushed start. Now this bike has been hard to start sometimes but would always grind. Like I said, nothing.
I was able to compression start it and drove around the neighborhood. Then kept going 1/2 hour or so. Bike ran as good as ever. Stopped the bike and it kicked right over each time. Drove it today and it kicked right over as well. So.... What was the problem yesterda? Did something get wet that would cause the bike to have a starter problem that clears up when the bike runs for a while?
I'm concerned about getting stuck next time it rains because I don't always have a good slope where I can compression start it. Wish this thing had a kick start....
Anyone want to hazzard a guess as to what my problem could be? thanks.
 
could be a bad ground connection. check all your ground wires and grounding points and give them a little cleaning and make sure they are secure.
 
Also check the clutch swith, run/kill switch, and the solenoid itself.
 
When you turn the ignition switch on, turn the run switch to on and engage the clutch which closes the start safety switch, that closes the circuit to the starter solenoid. There you should find 12 volts to the small solder joint that secures the yellow wire.
It is a simple series circuit the battery curent goes to the run/kill switch to the start button to the start safety on the clutch left hand switch to the solenoid. If you are not getting 12 volts start tracing continuity, make sure the safety switch is working, the run/kill switch is working, the push button on the start switch.
If you are getting 12 volts to the solenoid either the solenoid is bad it is not energizing and closing the contacts sending battery voltage to the starter. Or the solenoid is not grounded. I have found that the solenoids that are mounted to the side plates of the battery box isn't grounded well enough because the battery box itself is insulated with bushings on the front and back. Try running a ground wire from the engine to the screw that holds the solenoid in place. See the housing on the solenoid is the supply ground for the energizer circuit, you could have 12 volts there but if the housing isn't grounded the solenoid won't work. It is really a simple circuit but without a good clean ground or a loose one will cause intermittent problems. I would go thru that circuit and make sure all is clean and secure if you want to not get stranded or at least improve your odds it will not leave you stranded.
 
Excellent. I will start digging out the wiring and checking these contacts. Seems pretty weird that it would all work fine once it is warmed up. Perhaps there was a bad ground that is made worse by a little moisture ()or a lot in this case!)
 
Remember your kill switch settings

Remember your kill switch settings

Remember that your kill switch works in reverse. When you turn the bike "off" you are completing the ground. (taking the current and allowing it to go to ground instead of the coils) when you turn it to "run" you break that connection and the current goes to the coils. etc.

I mention this beacuse I had almost same thing on my gs 400 which I was selling to pay for my GR 650 I washed the bike and I could turn everything on and it would crank but kill switch was soaked and was causing the system to complete tthe circuit sending current to ground and no start.

How is your battery? If your bike has an igniter then you need battery charge to get it to run.

Hope this helps.

JB
 
kill switch

kill switch

Would be a good test to try to recreate the problem with the kill switch. Now that it is working fine maybe i could get the kill swith wet to see if i can make it "not start" again. I will try this on a sunny day in the yard where I will have the time and patience to pop start it again if i am "successful" with hosinig down the kill switch. Thanks.
 
I dont believe the kill switch actually works in reverse grounding the coils. According to my factory wiring print and actually replacing the wiring in the switch itself I see nothing that indicates a ground when the switch is thrown, at least on my particular bike. Throwing the kill switch does nothing but break the circuit removing the supply voltage to the coils, causing the coils to actually open because they need to be grounded like any electrical circuit to work. In the run position I can trace the coils thru the orange/white wire back from the coils thru the switch to the fuse panel to the battery. Also physically having the switch open in my hands there is nothing but 2 contacts in it, completing the circuit and opening the circuit. I can only testify to my factory manual and what I have seen. I know this doesn't help you. All I can say is first water and electiricty don't mix. I had a car that when it would heavy rain it wouldn't start for the life of me, condensation would get in the cap and kill the spark, as soon as the car dried out it would work.
But according to what I have physically seen in my switch there is two positions in side that switch open and close, the orange/white wire is pigtailed to both the run/stop button and the push button start switch so after the start switch is released it is still making contact with the run switch completing the circuit to the fuse panel.
 
Clutch switch?

Clutch switch?

I have a new theory.
After filling up today the bike would not start again. Nothing. No click just dead. I pushed away from the pump and was able to easily pop start it again. Now today it was sunny, hot and the bike ran great yesterday, no problems starting and it started right up in the garage before I left home.
When I got to work and parked the bike I shut it down via the kill switch. With the clutch still in I stopped and started the bike several times. Then (and here's the interesting part) I let the clutch out, pulled it back in then tah-day! the bike would not start. Looking at my clymer manual it shows the starter circuit with a switch in the clutch somewhere. Perhaps this is the problem? The clymer manual does not show where this switch is however. Doesn't seem to be on the bar anywhere. Anyone know where this swith is located?
Also, the clymer manual said the relay needs to be replaced when symptoms like the ones I experienced happen. But wouldn't the relay be an all or nothing thing - i.e. not intermitent?
 
That switch is IDENTICAL to the right hand brake switch. The switch is a small post with a copper tab across the top pushed underneath by a small spring that holds the copper tab against the switch, as you pull the clutch in this post slides inside the switch and makes contact with 2 copper rails that complete the circuit. That copper cover could be corroded a bit, the switch is adjustable as you loosen the 2 screws it slides back and forth making contact earlier or later, that is how the brake switch is adjusted. There are 2 wires coming from this switch, both yellow with green stripes, one wire goes goes to the start switch and the other goes to the top of the starter solenoid. This switch is mounted under the clutch handle by 2 screws. If you take that switch apart there is 3 pieces the plastic post that slides back and forth with the position of the clutch handle the copper tab that is U shaped and the spring that fits inside the U and inside the post, the U being upside down and the spring pusing up against the inside keeping pressure on the switch. That is the start safety switch so the bike can't start in gear with the clutch handle not pulled in. If that switch is mis adjusted or loose a little will cause all kinds of problems, but it is easy to fix. Just watch for that little spring inside, they are impossible to find if they fall to the ground.
 
Electrical gremlins

Electrical gremlins

Gremlins are dirty little beggers too. Once you open up your switch make sure you clean (with contact cleaner) and also clean any slots that contact posts may rest in too. I had the same thing only with my Brake light. It wouldn't turn on with jsut front brake lever. I took switch apart and cleaned the Bejezuz out of it. Now its perfectly clean and works like a charm.

Cheers,

JB
 
We went out today after work and two of us couldn't figure out where the god forsaken switch was on the lever. Based on what you posted I will take a look at it again. Interesting, my brake light will not go on with the hand brake lever, only the foot brake. Seems like I have the same problem on both sides? Thanks for the replies.
-eric
 
It is on the underside of the lever housing and has a 2 wire harness coming from it. It is held in with 2 small screws and is oval in shape, the 2 screws hold in the cover that has a slot in it for the wires to come out from under. Just look for the wires in a black cover going up the handlebar. You have the clutch cable, the wiring for the turn switch housing and the wiring for the start safety, unless someone removed it and did some elective engineering on it. On the right hand side there is the wires fromthe start/run switch and the wires from the brake switch.
The switch is oval in shape and apart the back side looks like 2 railroad tracks made of copper running along the back side, on the other side is each wire soldered to those tracks, the post with the copper cap rides along the back side and as you pull the clutch in it causes this post with the cap to move and when it makes contact with those 2 rails it is crossing the 2 wires and making the switch. none of that you can see it is all inside the switch. The post sits in a chamber in the housing and as the lever is pulled it forces the post to slide inside making contact with the switch rails. Go to www.twowheelcorp.com look up the fiche then enter the year of your bike and in the pulldown menu select your bike model, then in the pulldown menu of the fiche select left hand switch it will show a blow up of the parts and location of what is on the left hand switch, select right hand switch and you will find the pics for the right hand brake switch. They are identical only with different wire colors, but they act the same way. Look for a black plastic cover about 1 inch in length on the underside of the lever housing that has 2 black screws holding it in place and you have found your switch...
 
The saga continues....

The saga continues....

I opened up the shift lever switch tonight. I recommend anyone trying this for the first time to loosen the lever and flip it over so you're looking down at it rather than up at it. If you don't do this there is really no way to get the little spring over the post then the U on top of it. Anyway, the switch is spent. the copper U had two grooves in it that coincided with the two rails on the contact. The two rails were worn down almost to the nub. I polished off the top of the U with fine sandpaper and tried to get it together. Still didn't work. I coiled up some 14 gauge coper wire and put it on top of the contacts to complete the circuit. Still no go. Tomorrow morning I am going to defeat and bypass the little bugger. I guess I will cut the wires and splice them together right near the switch. Fine with me for now anyway. Eventually I'll get it fixed right. Problem is the brake light switch on the right side. If that is the same thing I'm hosed. Need to find parts. I can't believe that on such a great bike as this some bozo engineer decided these switches would cut it. They are garbage. I refuse to let some stupid 4mm U shaped piece of copper spoil my riding season. Wish someone had invented some retrofit switch or aftermarket generic thing that would work in place of these switches.
 
oh yeah, me too

oh yeah, me too

I found out about the clutch switch the hard way shortly after I bought my GS. Tried to start it on the stand in neutral without grabbing the clutch. "What the ...?!?! It just started a minute ago!!"
 
The part number for that little post spring and cap assembly is
#57465-18601, it is called Contact holder and is priced @ $2.54 at www.worldofcycles.com That part number is good for both the left and right hand switches as that part is the same in both switches.
The left hand and right hand switch has a little black plastic cover it's part number is #57481-33010 called Terminal Bace C priced @ $3.35
You can purchase the entire brake switch assembly, switch screws, wiring harness, post etc... the number for the entire assembly is #57460-45500 priced @ $20.94. I got mine on ebay for $8.... They dont show a part number for the clutch safety switch but you could use the brake switch for the safety switch because they are identical except the wiring color is different. For the Brake switch the wires are Orange/Green stripe and White. The colors for the Safety switch are both Yellow/Green stripes. They both do the same thing are identical in size shape and will work.
 
Thanks. I'm taking apart the brake side tonight and will order what I need. I cracked the housing on the one attached to the clutch lever. Cranked it down too hard and busted it.
 
I had taken mine apart on both sides and someone in another post mentioned something I failed to remember, when you loosen the bolts spin the handle so the bottom is facing up, this way the screw post and spring will be sitting in the switch and wont fall out, makes for wokring on it a LOT easier...
 
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