Electrical woes - low voltage, starting issues, etc.

[exzachtly1]

Hi all,
First a little background. I've owned my 82 GS650L for like 8 years now. It was my starter bike, and it is no longer my daily driver. But I kept it around as a project bike to continue learning about motorcycle maintenance and I do still ride it from time to time. I've been making little improvements here and there, working my way down the list of stuff as money and time allows. One thing that has always plagued me on the bike is the electrical issues it seems to have.

It has always had low voltage to the blinkers, horn, headlight, etc. and lately has been having some starting issues. Occasionally I will push the starter button and nothing happens... this happened the other day when I stopped to fill it up for gas. No clicking, starter motor not turning or anything. I turned the key off and on a couple times and eventually it fired... but I thought I was gonna be calling a tow truck. So I'm scared to take it too far right now.

So, I decided to start investigating. A couple months ago, I found that one of the connectors under the seat was a bit melted. I replaced that with a brand new connector. Then I went through basically the entire wiring harness from head to tail and cleaned each connection with some DeOxit and a small wire brush as needed. Nothing looked particularly corroded. I also replaced the main connectors going to the battery, since they did look a little rough. All of that work and it didn't really have a benefit. I let it be for a while.

Now I decided to replace the burnt out bulb for my high beam light indicator on the instrument cluster. I decided to try an LED bulb for it, and found that upon replacement it would light up but it is VERY dim. A halogen bulb will light up though. So I checked the voltage with my multimeter and it's only getting about 7.5 volts. I also tested the horn (which has really never worked) and it only get like 3.5-4 volts. So it's clear that I am having some massive voltage drops somewhere. My battery is older at this point, probably about 5 years but has not had much use and it's always been on a tender during down times. As far as I know it's still OK since the bike does start and run, and it seems to hold a charge.

Short of redoing the entire harness, where should I be looking? The fuse box is the original, and I have read that those can be a trouble spot. Should I replace that with something new? Recommendations on what to get? I do plan to have the battery tested just to be sure but just looking for any advice for where to go next. If you can't tell, I'm not super electrically inclined. I just feel like I must be missing something obvious with that kind of voltage drop!

 

[posplayr]

Get a volt meter and learn to use it.
Start with the Quick test and report the numbers.

BTW, if yoiu were only brushing the contacts instead of getting into crimps you may have been doing little to alleviate corrosion inside of a crimp.

The good news is most connectors are not that likely to give any issues. The main ones are between battery, R/R and fuse box including ignition switch. The headlamp can be an issue also because it draws so much current.

 

[Big T]

Also, when you did the harness cleaning, did you disassemble the switches and clean them?

 

[exzachtly1]

You mean the switch controls on the handlebars? Well, not this time. I have in the past thoroughly cleaned the left side switch controls when I was trying to get the horn to work. Had some success... got it to where the horn would function if I was in motion but still wouldn't work at idle / with the engine off. That was a few years ago. I have not cleaned the right side switch controls.

Re: the headlight... would replacing it with an LED bulb help that issue? Since an LED would draw less current?

I do have a multimeter and know how to use it at a very basic level. Still working on being competent enough to fully understand the motorcycle's electrical system and how to test it and isolate where the voltage drop is happening. I am happy to take any advice, or pointers to videos / tutorials that might help me out.

And I will def. check out the quick test... you mean this one right? http://gsarchive.bwringer.com/storagecliff/images/electrical_odd-n-ends.html#A20
Will report back with those numbers. I did do this one years ago and everything checked out but I suppose it is time to do it again to make sure my battery is still okay.

 

[Grimly]

Re: the headlight... would replacing it with an LED bulb help that issue? Since an LED would draw less current?

Only after you've made sure the charging system and the switchgear is up to snuff. Before you fit an LED headlight you have to dump the old reg-rec and replace it with a series type (Shindengen SH-775, Compufire, etc) because the lowered current draw of the LED will just result in more current being dumped back into the stator, which is already running on the ragged edge.

 

[exzachtly1]

Here are the results from the quick test. The only place I saw problems was step 5 - seemed low and was wavering all over the place. It suggests that I have "bad connections" and mentions checking the grounds, positive legs between R/R and battery, fuse box, and large bullet connector to battery. I will do my best to figure out how to check all of those but can someone point me in the right direction? What is meant by "check the grounds" exactly? Hoping I can figure out the rest but I'm beginning to suspect my fuse box. Any advice is appreciated.

 

[posplayr]

Did a quick look at your 5k voltages. Assume the bouncing is charging noise interacting with the voltmeter(not to worry). So just average the numbers 13-14.2==>13.6v which is lower than 2.5k rpm. Therefore dirty connection between r/r and battery (both grounds and 12v side).
this doesn’t mean that stator is perfect, need to check fix connection before peeling back anymore layers of the onion

 

[exzachtly1]

Did a quick look at your 5k voltages. Assume the bouncing is charging noise interacting with the voltmeter(not to worry). So just average the numbers 13-14.2==>13.6v which is lower than 2.5k rpm. Therefore dirty connection between r/r and battery (both grounds and 12v side).
this doesn’t mean that stator is perfect, need to check fix connection before peeling back anymore layers of the onion

Thank you. I pulled the battery today and started going through things again. Here is what I've found so far...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HAGP68e92yfBLF5K9

Photo 1 shows the ground wire coming from the R/R. You can see that it seems to be extended with a bullet connector (also in photo 9), but I'm not sure why. I don't think it needs the extra length. Is it that way from the factory? You can also see that I've already put a new ring connector on it since the old one was pretty fried. EDIT: I realize now that the length was added so they could run it directly to the negative terminal on the battery. That's a good thing right? Less resistance?

Photo 2 shows a concerning rusty looking bolt, at the bottom of the battery cage... this is holding two wires. One of them goes up to the negative terminal on the battery and the other one connects to a point right above where the RR is, I think just to the frame. That bolt is very rusty but the metal point where it connects to the frame underneath is clean. I plan to try to clean that rust as much as I can. You can see the ring connectors weren't the best either, I didn't bother trying to clean them. Simply replaced them with new ring connectors. That's basically photos 3-7 and 9. You can also see in photo 9, that wire had also been extended with a butt connector... not sure why. I removed it.

Photos 10-11 show the 4-pin connector from the R/R that previously was partially melted. This happened a long time ago, not exactly sure when it fried but I replaced that connector completely as you can see. Any idea why that could have happened?

The last 4 photos are of the fuse box. I wanted to show the condition of it... to me, it looks OK but maybe I'm wrong? It does seem like it could use a little cleaning so I will probably go through it with some deoxit.

Anything obvious jumping out from my description or photos? I'm doing what I can to clean/replace stuff but feeling pretty unsure about my progress (or lack of) so far.

 

[exzachtly1]

Here is a pic of the melted R/R connector, from back in march...



Again... it's been replaced and so far so good but I also have not ridden the bike a lot since then. Could this point to a faulty stator or R/R or both? Also, and forgive me if this is a total newbie question but... would faulty stator or R/R components create the other symptoms I'm seeing? Voltage so low at the instrument cluster that it can't light an LED bulb... voltage too low to operate the horn, dim lights, etc.? I understand that these components are related specifically to the charging system but was not sure if they could also cause the other symptoms I'm seeing.

Also, if there's any chance that the stator or R/R is bad, I'm more than happy to just bite the bullet and replace both of them. Been slowly upgrading things on this bike and I feel like it would be good peace of mind to just do it. Caltric brand looks like it would be a total of ~60 bucks shipped for both parts, and then I'd just need a stator cover gasket.

 

[exzachtly1]

Last post for the night ... Is this normal? There is a ground wire spliced into the main negative battery cable, and it was running from there (battery terminal) to the ground point at the bottom of the battery box. It looks like maybe something someone added (I replaced the ring connector though):



Wondering if it's needed or if I can clean it up / remove it. The insulation around it is kinda crappy and falling apart.

 

[posplayr]

Thank you. I pulled the battery today and started going through things again. Here is what I've found so far...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HAGP68e92yfBLF5K9

Photo 1 shows the ground wire coming from the R/R. You can see that it seems to be extended with a bullet connector (also in photo 9), but I'm not sure why. I don't think it needs the extra length. Is it that way from the factory? You can also see that I've already put a new ring connector on it since the old one was pretty fried. EDIT: I realize now that the length was added so they could run it directly to the negative terminal on the battery. That's a good thing right? Less resistance?

Photo 2 shows a concerning rusty looking bolt, at the bottom of the battery cage... this is holding two wires. One of them goes up to the negative terminal on the battery and the other one connects to a point right above where the RR is, I think just to the frame. That bolt is very rusty but the metal point where it connects to the frame underneath is clean. I plan to try to clean that rust as much as I can. You can see the ring connectors weren't the best either, I didn't bother trying to clean them. Simply replaced them with new ring connectors. That's basically photos 3-7 and 9. You can also see in photo 9, that wire had also been extended with a butt connector... not sure why. I removed it.

Photos 10-11 show the 4-pin connector from the R/R that previously was partially melted. This happened a long time ago, not exactly sure when it fried but I replaced that connector completely as you can see. Any idea why that could have happened?

The last 4 photos are of the fuse box. I wanted to show the condition of it... to me, it looks OK but maybe I'm wrong? It does seem like it could use a little cleaning so I will probably go through it with some deoxit.

Anything obvious jumping out from my description or photos? I'm doing what I can to clean/replace stuff but feeling pretty unsure about my progress (or lack of) so far.

See previous comments. Chemically clean and prepare the contacts between battery and R/R including all those grounds. I have a thread i started a while back listing useful products. Deoxit is mainly for clean contacts with light imperceptible corrosion. if it is green you need something tougher (like Naval jelly, vinegar etc).
All you pictures show ZERO cleaning. Not sure what the point of that is. You are lucky the fuse box is not melted. If you dont clean it it will melt.

That ground extension to the battery is kinda pathetic. You can do the Phase A stator tests to measure teh voltage drops to confirm.

Did a quick look at your 5k voltages. Assume the bouncing is charging noise interacting with the voltmeter(not to worry). So just average the numbers 13-14.2==>13.6v which is lower than 2.5k rpm. Therefore dirty connection between r/r and battery (both grounds and 12v side).
this doesn’t mean that stator is perfect, need to check fix connection before peeling back anymore layers of the onion

 

[posplayr]

Last post for the night ... Is this normal? There is a ground wire spliced into the main negative battery cable, and it was running from there (battery terminal) to the ground point at the bottom of the battery box. It looks like maybe something someone added (I replaced the ring connector though):

View attachment 61327

Wondering if it's needed or if I can clean it up / remove it. The insulation around it is kinda crappy and falling apart.

Some of these bike have some pretty crappy grounding so just replacing the stock setup is not even that great of an idea.

Measuring your voltage drops and you can decide how in depth you want to go. If they are bad at all i woudl do the full enchilada.

An SPG is universally foolproof but you might have to study my link a bit.

The figures/thread that Nessism (Ed) has for a SH-775 ignores grounds.

Any 5 wire R/R should be wired the same.

https://www.thegsresources.com/_for...-Charging-System-Health&p=1138531#post1138531

 

[Steve]

A couple of things in the first post caught my eye:

My battery is older at this point, probably about 5 years but has not had much use and it's always been on a tender during down times.

First, at 5 years your battery is very near, if not past, its useful life.
Second, depending on the "tender", you may have killed it. Even the best of battery maintainers is not a good idea for constant, long-term use. Charging the battery over the weekend, once a month will likely do a better job.

.

 

[exzachtly1]

See previous comments. Chemically clean and prepare the contacts between battery and R/R including all those grounds. I have a thread i started a while back listing useful products. Deoxit is mainly for clean contacts with light imperceptible corrosion. if it is green you need something tougher (like Naval jelly, vinegar etc).
All you pictures show ZERO cleaning. Not sure what the point of that is. You are lucky the fuse box is not melted. If you dont clean it it will melt.

That ground extension to the battery is kinda pathetic. You can do the Phase A stator tests to measure teh voltage drops to confirm.

Thank you. I sense a little frustration in your reply - I do appreciate your advice and I'm sure it can be frustrating constantly answering questions that seem obvious. I guess I didn't realize how bad the fuse box is, and what "clean" really needs to look like... now I know and I am taking steps to address the problems as I learn. Currently I pulled all the fuses out of the fuse box and am soaking the entire unit + connectors in a vinegar bath. Then I will neutralize the acid with baking soda+water. Does that sound like a good method? Hoping that this will do the trick, I've had great luck cleaning screws and bolts with this method in the past. You are right that I did not pay enough attention to the fuse box and grounds on my first pass at cleaning - I basically focused on the connectors throughout the bike, mainly just spraying with deoxit and using small wire brushes to try to clean the contacts. Did not realize how important these ground wires are - like I said, obvious to you but not to me... still learning

I do plan to study your previous posts you linked to regarding "single point ground" and so forth. And will do some more tests as I figure out how to. Will post updates as I progress!

"That ground extension to the battery is kinda pathetic" - advice on how to change it? Should I just eliminate it and ground it to the frame instead of the battery? Or extend it with a new connector?

A couple of things in the first post caught my eye:

First, at 5 years your battery is very near, if not past, its useful life.
Second, depending on the "tender", you may have killed it. Even the best of battery maintainers is not a good idea for constant, long-term use. Charging the battery over the weekend, once a month will likely do a better job.

.

Thanks, yeah I realize the battery could be bad after so long. But just FYI these problems aren't new... they've always been there as long as I've had the bike. I will take the battery to have it tested regardless and replace if needed. The tender I use is a "battery tender junior" and I don't really leave it on constantly. I do tend to unhook it for a while, then hook it up again after a week or so. Over the winter I alternate it between the two batteries I have (one for my other bike).

 

[Rich82GS750TZ]

I recently had my bike completely apart so took the opportunity to really clean all of the electrical connections. It's certainly easier when your're holding the harness in your hand and can do a bunch of connections at the same time. I took posplayr's advice on the naval jelly. Gooped it on, waited 10 minutes, then flushed with water. I used a WaterPik (that I just so happened to have). This worked extremely will, especially where the terminals are encased in a plastic block connector. I did not de-pin all of the connectors, but did de-pin one after the cleaning and was satisfied with the process. Naval Jelly is amazing stuff. The WaterPik makes a mess. Wear gloves and goggles.

After flushing with water, I used compressed air to dry all connectors, then spayed all with electrical contact spray, which (I think) helps evaporate any leftover water. Then a final light touch of deoxit on all. Did the same treatment with every switch on the pike that I could get apart.

This can be done with the wires on the bike. Hold a towel around the connector and get the waterpik in there. Towel to contain the mess. Very please with the results.

 

[exzachtly1]

I recently had my bike completely apart so took the opportunity to really clean all of the electrical connections. It's certainly easier when your're holding the harness in your hand and can do a bunch of connections at the same time. I took posplayr's advice on the naval jelly. Gooped it on, waited 10 minutes, then flushed with water. I used a WaterPik (that I just so happened to have). This worked extremely will, especially where the terminals are encased in a plastic block connector. I did not de-pin all of the connectors, but did de-pin one after the cleaning and was satisfied with the process. Naval Jelly is amazing stuff. The WaterPik makes a mess. Wear gloves and goggles.

After flushing with water, I used compressed air to dry all connectors, then spayed all with electrical contact spray, which (I think) helps evaporate any leftover water. Then a final light touch of deoxit on all. Did the same treatment with every switch on the pike that I could get apart.

This can be done with the wires on the bike. Hold a towel around the connector and get the waterpik in there. Towel to contain the mess. Very please with the results.

Cool, thanks for the tips. I have never tried using naval jelly I might have to give that a shot. Sounds like it would be faster than vinegar, and easier to do with parts on the bike (can't vinegar soak something that's attached to the bike!). I don't own a waterpik though, would have to get my hands on one of those I guess.

 

[exzachtly1]

Another thing I found, is that there is an incorrectly sized fuse in the "Head" fuse slot... it has a 20 amp installed but calls for 10 amp:

Could this have been the cause of the fried R/R connector? I tried to trace the wiring diagram to understand what this fuse controls but I got confused

Here is some before/after of the fuse box after about 10 hours of vinegar soak and some light scrubbing:

To my untrained eye, this seems a hell of a lot cleaner. Is it clean enough? I plan to spray with some deoxit, put the correct fuse in the 10A slot, and probably re-wire the positive battery wire. The connectors and wire are not in the greatest shape.

 

[exzachtly1]

Welp I've somehow managed to make it worse. I put everything back together because I wanted to see if replacing all those terminals for the grounds and cleaning up the fuse box helped... but now I am getting NO power to anything except my instrument cluster. Rear lights not working, starter not working, headlight not working... I have not touched anything else besides the fusebox, battery area, grounds connections for the R/R, etc.

The only things I am suspecting are either a bad crimp on one of the new terminals (I was careful here to do it well!), bad fuse (they all look fine), or put something back together wrong (I've triple checked everything). Or maybe the battery is just dying, I will take it to be tested as soon as I can.

I have new fuses coming tomorrow, so I plan to replace all of them just in case but they certainly don't look blown or anything.

Now, in the past there was an issue one time where this happened. I basically just moved the battery into position (after having it pulled out at an angle to connect everything) and it started working again. Always chalked that event up to there just being a dirty or loose connection, or a short somewhere... that is part of why I am doing what I'm doing now. I know there are problems. But I'm wondering if that could mean an issue somewhere else? Maybe in the main battery cables? I can't understand why all this work I did would make things worse unless I just fudged something or knocked something else loose that was hanging on the ragged edge already.

Happy to take suggestions... in the meantime I will continue to go over everything to make sure I didn't miss something.

Edit: Used the multi meter to check continuity between all the ground wires, fuses, and battery wires. Everything checked out. So I don't think I have a problem in any of my new connections or the fuses...

 

[Gorminrider]

and am soaking the entire unit + connectors in a vinegar bath. Then I will neutralize the acid with baking soda+water. Does that sound like a good method? Hoping that this will do the trick

Try adding salt to the vinegar. Works A1 to brighten up wire and connectors.

 

[Gorminrider]

advice on how to change it? Should I just eliminate it and ground it to the frame instead of the battery?

looking at the pictures, you have a lot of funk from a previous owner...the 20 amp fuse at headlights indicates they had trouble on that circuit and the larger fuse may have exacerbated them.

The motorcycle's original ground system had the thick cable attached to the engine, with two smaller ground wires (Black/white stripe) coming out of the harness -one at front one at rear-attached to the frame...(NOT the forks) The added one...I can't swear to it per your "L" without looking at the particular diagram but my gs650G has no such thing and it sure looks like "funk" to me....perhaps the PO chopped the other off at the harness.

The battery box is not the worst place to connect a (B/W) ground wire but connection should be rust free under a tight bolt...

You can disconnect one fuse at a time and see if that helps your large voltage drops...and thereby narrows down bad circuits.

Your regulator and stator are suspects. The old originals could blow SCR or diodes and allow power BACK into a stator. Which is pretty close to a dead short at the MAIN 15amp fuse, but not always.... Disconnect the regulator and see if that helps- the bike can run on a battery alone for a little while.

ABOVE ALL consult your wiring diagram and try to figure out what the Previous owner was "fixing" with the additional? wires and black tape. Black tape can be ok for ceertain purposes but good 3m black tape will not unravel so easily and is worth the xtra $...

A coloured wiring diagram can help. go here
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/bikecliff/images/gs650wiring.html