Flange bolts, any tips?

[exzachtly1]

Bumping the thread again. I need some suggestions of where to go next. I have been trying to have a go at this myself the past few days. We had a death in the family last Thursday so loud_et and I weren't able to get together over the weekend. I'm going crazy not being able to ride my bike.

Ordered a dremel (black and decker, cheap one), got that in the mail. Bought some map gas. Tried last night and this morning, heating (red hot), cooling, spraying. A couple of them acted like they were going to do something... they gave a slight creaking noise when I turned the wrench (1/4" drive, btw) a bit. But I still cannot get them to go anywhere. Probably spent 2 hours at this by now. One of them is completely seized up again, and it looks like I got things so hot that I almost cracked/melted the metal of the flange.

If it were any of you guys, where would you go from here? I am so close to throwing in the towel and breaking the last 3 off so I can at least get the old exhaust off and start making some progress at removing the broken bolts. If I do that I will be facing 6 sheared bolts :evil:

Second option is to wait until probably this weekend for loud_et to stop by.

Is it even remotely possible to cut the heads of these off to avoid the risk of shearing the bolt too flush? I'm guessing the dremel wheel is too big for that.

 

[mvalenti]

I would keep at it with heat and penetrating oils.... when red hot work it back and forth rather than just one direction.... I might even go so far as to take a small drill bit 3/32 and drill a hole thru the middle of the bolt thru to get penetrating oil behind the bolt.... squirt it once a day for a week or so.... broken bolts suck..

 

[Agemax]

i would use a 3/8 ratchet at least. 1/4inch is to small and weedy.
a dremmel cut off wheel will cut the heads off the bolts easily allowing you to remove the exhaust. this will then give you better access to the remains to remove them

 

[exzachtly1]

I would keep at it with heat and penetrating oils.... when red hot work it back and forth rather than just one direction.... I might even go so far as to take a small drill bit 3/32 and drill a hole thru the middle of the bolt thru to get penetrating oil behind the bolt.... squirt it once a day for a week or so.... broken bolts suck..

Still working on it, still no love. I've been working 2 of the bolts practically all afternoon. Probably been through 5-10 spray/heat/cool cycles on each one at this point. Not budging really.

i would use a 3/8 ratchet at least. 1/4inch is to small and weedy.
a dremmel cut off wheel will cut the heads off the bolts easily allowing you to remove the exhaust. this will then give you better access to the remains to remove them

Only reason I was shying away from the 3/8 is because it seems to break them too easily. It's too hard to tell if the bolt is turning or breaking, until it's too late! I checked with my dremel and cutting wheels... I don't think there's a good angle on any of the bolts to cut them off. Not enough room.

I wish I had just busted them off from the get-go and removed the head to take to a machine shop or something. Any idea what that would cost? Is it very difficult to remove the head? I've only ever taken the valve cover off, that's as far as I've gotten in the engine.

I guess we'll see what loud_et and I can get done. Seems like the bike will be down for a while again. I don't know why I stupidly always decide to do this stuff when the weather is super nice.

 

[Agemax]

looking at that pic in post #41 i cant see why you cannot get a dremmel on it? you should at least easily get a hacksaw on that bolt head to shop it off, even if you have to use a blade on its own and wrap a cloth round it as a grip

 

[exzachtly1]

looking at that pic in post #41 i cant see why you cannot get a dremmel on it? you should at least easily get a hacksaw on that bolt head to shop it off, even if you have to use a blade on its own and wrap a cloth round it as a grip

That one maybe, the other two are definitely in tougher spots (they are the lower bolts on #2 and #3). I'll have to look again another day, I think I'm spent for the day.

 

[exzachtly1]

Maybe a dumb question... but can I ride the bike in this condition without the pipes secured properly? They're hanging on by #2 (2 bolts) and #3 (one bolt) right now... all the other bolts are either out or broken.

Was thinking it might help to go for a couple of quick rides, and spray penetrating fluid after the engine is nice and hot. Don't know if there's much point to doing that at this point... I'm just thinking it could expand the aluminum more than I've been able to with a torch. Want to get as much in there as I can before loud_et stops over on Saturday to witness this atrocity first hand.

 

[Agemax]

just refit some of the missing bolts for now, just to be safe. it will blow a bit and sound horrible but it wont hurt as long as you dont thrash it

 

[exzachtly1]

Couldn't stand it any more. The last 3 bolts would not move no matter what I did, tried all of the tricks with no luck. I have definitely reached the point of "f*** it"... broke the last 3 off in a heroic last ditch effort. Here is where I'm at. Cylinder 1 is good to go.

Number 2:

Number 3:

Number 4:

The exhaust is off. If anyone is curious, this is why I'm going through this:

I have been working on that outer one on cylinder 4 by slotting it with my dremel and heating, candle wax, impact driver. The thing will NOT budge. The impact driver just keeps breaking the pieces where I have slotted it.

So. Do you guys think I can get any of these off or is it time to stock up on drill bits? Adam is possibly coming on Monday to help, so I suppose I can do whatever I can before then and then hope we can make some progress together.

Last option, is to take the head to a machine shop which I am close to just doing anyways. I called a local place and they will do it for $15/bolt including heli-coil. If I decided to go that route, would I have to replace the head gasket? My understanding is that those are not cheap. So I'm probably looking at $200 at least plus a few hours getting the head off and back on (plus this would be my first time ever doing that, which frightens me a bit). My biggest concern is getting access to the bolts that are near the frame. Also will probably have to take the wheel/forks off.

 

[Agemax]

have you tried vice grips on the bolt remains you can get access too? again, get some heat in there

 

[exzachtly1]

have you tried vice grips on the bolt remains you can get access too? again, get some heat in there

I have not yet, I will give that a shot.

 

[exzachtly1]

No luck. Either my hands aren't strong enough or the vise grips aren't, but I can't get any play using that method. I was really hoping the impact driver would do the trick but it doesn't seem like it will. Maybe the map torch isn't getting things hot enough? I'm not sure.

Is it difficult to remove the head? Wouldn't that be easier than spending hours and hours drilling out 6 bolts? What about gaskets, do I have to do OEM or is there an alternative? Just weighing all of my options here.

 

[Agemax]

i really think you should wait now until the cavalry arrives to help you. you dont want to do anything bad and do some damage that possibly could have been salvaged.
if he cant make it to help you then think about taking the head off but you should hang fire for a day or 2 now and leave it alone.

as for gaskets, you will need a top end gasket set, OEM and while you are there you should do valve stem seals and possibly other top end work if required. it WILL work out expensive!

 

[exzachtly1]

i really think you should wait now until the cavalry arrives to help you. you dont want to do anything bad and do some damage that possibly could have been salvaged.
if he cant make it to help you then think about taking the head off but you should hang fire for a day or 2 now and leave it alone

Roger that, I agree. It doesn't seem like I'm making any progress. These things are so stuck it's unbelievable.

 

[exzachtly1]

as for gaskets, you will need a top end gasket set, OEM and while you are there you should do valve stem seals and possibly other top end work if required. it WILL work out expensive!

So you're talking about part 7-1 here:
http://www.boulevardsuzuki.com/fich...y=Motorcycles&make=SUZUKI&year=1981&fveh=2128

And 8 valve stem seals... which part is that on the fiche? I see them here...

I guess I just want to be prepared to know what the cost will be if I have to go down that road. Might not be bad anyways since it seems like there is a LOT of old crud possibly from leaking oil around the cylinder head gasket. I really need to clean it up in there but was trying to wait until after this job since I'm getting PB and candle wax everywhere

 

[Agemax]

the part 7 is just the head gasket. you need a complete top end set. head,base,valve cover, exhausts,etc.
yes those are the valve seals you need but get genuine Suzuki ones, not cheapy ones as they normally dont work that long.
its a bit of a bummer but if you really want to do a proper job you got to spend the money.

if Loud ET can sort the broken studs for you it will save you heaps of cash and cleaning up the top end afterwards will be an easy job

 

[exzachtly1]

the part 7 is just the head gasket. you need a complete top end set. head,base,valve cover, exhausts,etc.
yes those are the valve seals you need but get genuine Suzuki ones, not cheapy ones as they normally dont work that long.
its a bit of a bummer but if you really want to do a proper job you got to spend the money.

if Loud ET can sort the broken studs for you it will save you heaps of cash and cleaning up the top end afterwards will be an easy job

Yowza! Looks like about 200 bucks for all that, if I have all of the part numbers right.


GASKET,CYLINDER for 1981 SUZUKI GS650GL 1981-1982
11241-34220
$18.61


CYLINDER O RING for 1981 SUZUKI GS650GL 1981-1982
09280-61001
$11.00

GASKET SET,CYL for 1981 SUZUKI GS650GL 1981-1982
11140-34811
$107.84

GASKET,CYL HD C for 1981 SUZUKI GS650GL 1981-1982
11173-34202
http://www.boulevardsuzuki.com/fich... for 1981 <mfg>SUZUKI</mfg> GS650GL 1981-1982$21.79

VALVE STEM OIL for 1981 SUZUKI GS650GL 1981-1982
09289-07002
$37.28

Total:
$196.52

 

[Agemax]

you only need to buy the head set #11140-34811 and the valve guide seals.
every gasket and o ring you need is included in the set.

 

[exzachtly1]

you only need to buy the head set #11140-34811 and the valve guide seals.
every gasket and o ring you need is included in the set.

I'm confused... I thought you said I would need a base gasket too? Or is that optional? I guess that's the only thing I wasn't sure of, do you HAVE to do the base gasket when you do the head gasket.

These two parts were for the cylinder base:

GASKET,CYLINDER for 1981 SUZUKI GS650GL 1981-1982
11241-34220
$18.61

CYLINDER O RING for 1981 SUZUKI GS650GL 1981-1982
09280-61001 x4
$11.00

This one for the cylinder head cover (though I just replaced that with my valve clearance job, so it may be re-usable):

GASKET,CYL HD C for 1981 SUZUKI GS650GL 1981-1982
11173-34202
$21.79

 

[Agemax]

you will need the base gasket as once you remove the head the base gasket will not usually seal again properly. you should replace it to be on the safe side.

sorry if i am confusing you, i got confused myself now lol.

yes you need the head gasket set, base gasket set, exhaust gaskets,valve stem seals and carb boot to head o rings. you should get away with the valve cover gasket