Ground Loops

[posplayr]

Redrider

Redrider

Tying everthing to the frame is probably the best method, but it's costly from a manufacturers viewpoint. It's also unreliable long term as each tie point can corrode. This means they all must be properly sealed from the elements -> more $$.

But that is exactly how Suzuki designed the system.

In order to understand the voltage drops associated with the various grounds, take a look at this link and check out the resistance per foot of various AWG wire. http://www.radiolocman.com/shem/shem-cache.html?di=18899 18 guage wire has a resistance of 7.51 milliohms/foot. That means you need 8 amps of current to drop 0.5 volt. You'll need 10 amps to drop 0.5 volt with AWG 16.

The resistance generally occurs in the contacts and substantial losses are not in the wire.

How much current are you going to use? Determine that, then either make your ground wires larger, or shorter, or both.

[/QUOTE]


The OEM harness seems to be sized for the 12 amp supply currents. It is the connections that give most of the issues.

Pos

 

[posplayr]

duaneage

duaneage

RRs and Grounding is turning into the new Oil Thread it seems.

Maybe I should rename the thread
"Sparks and Magic" ?

How bout
"Hocus pocus electrics for dummies".

Watta bout
"Solve all your problems ; bye a Honda"

I guess I have no issues with debunking conventional "wisdom" when it is wrong.

Pos

 

[rustybronco]

I suppose I'll just have to disagree with your supposition that the ground path between the motor and frame is a problem. Return currents will take the path of least resistance to the battery negative terminal...

When you have something that is old and exposed to the elements, the electrical connection can deteriorate over time. as an example, the motor mount bolts can rust between the frame and the head of the bolt or the nut where they are "bonded" to the frame, or between the bolt and the engine block. creating differing resistances, between where the negative cable is attached (the engine) and where the regulator is grounded (the frame). with resistances in parallel, current will flow through both, not seek the path of least resistance.

***edit*** sorry, I was composing this, between my various functions at work. I didn't see or yet read the previous responses.

 

[reddirtrider]

When you have something that is old and exposed to the elements, the electrical connection can deteriorate over time. as an example, the motor mount bolts can rust between the frame and the head of the bolt or the nut where they are "bonded" to the frame, or between the bolt and the engine block. creating differing resistances, between where the negative cable is attached (the engine) and where the regulator is grounded (the frame). with resistances in parallel, current will flow through both, not seek the path of least resistance.

***edit*** sorry, I was composing this, between my various functions at work. I didn't see or yet read the previous responses.

The current will flow through both, correct, but it will seek the path of least resistance. In other words, the greater resistance path will see less current, while the path of least resistance will see the greater current. They will try to equalize the voltage drops across both paths.

Due to the contact area of the contact surfaces of the motor mounts I'd be really surprised if they offer significant resistances due to corrosion. If they did, then you also have the ground strap as a backup.

 

[reddirtrider]

It was mentioned earlier that there is a 2 amp charging current returning from the battery to the RR. I was curious if you actually measured a positive voltage drop from the battery terminal negative post to the RR.

 

[reddirtrider]

But that is exactly how Suzuki designed the system.



The resistance generally occurs in the contacts and substantial losses are not in the wire.



The OEM harness seems to be sized for the 12 amp supply currents. It is the connections that give most of the issues.

Pos

Actually Suzuki does not tie each return to the frame. There are very few tie points to the frame.

I agree the connections give the most issues. That's nothing new for any piece of machinery. Corrosion is your worst enemy.

I also agree that there is greater resistance at the connectors than the wire. It seems moot however, since I don't know how to design a system without connectors or connection points that use terminals.

 

[posplayr]

reddirtrider

reddirtrider

It was mentioned earlier that there is a 2 amp charging current returning from the battery to the RR. I was curious if you actually measured a positive voltage drop from the battery terminal negative post to the RR.

Yes I can even see the polarity reversal as a function of engine speed. It is hard to keep this voltage below 0.25V at 4000 RPM. It wants to get closer to 0.5V at 4K and if it gets to 0.75V then you have significant loss in charging capacity as the max voltage to the battery will likely drop below 13V.

I have posted to threads that this parasitic resistance on the R/R (+) to Batt (+) can be used as an indicator to show if charging is occurring. If the R/R is producing current there has to be a forward drop across it.

These points I'm bringing up are a problem in the current stator pages as they simply look for a 0.2V difference at idle when the issue really manifests it self at RPM when current is flowing.

Pos

 

[posplayr]

RedRider

RedRider

Actually Suzuki does not tie each return to the frame. There are very few tie points to the frame..

OK i double checked, The R/R(-) is tied to the frame ground in the schematics. Many of the other grounds are engine grounds. Don't have it here but there are frame grounds for tail lights for example.

I also agree that there is greater resistance at the connectors than the wire. It seems moot however, since I don't know how to design a system without connectors or connection points that use terminals.

Well there are alternatives to power and grounding that reduce the sensitivity to corrosion . That has been the point of my thread; so I dont think it is mute.

Pos

 

[reddirtrider]

OK
Well there are alternatives to power and grounding that reduce the sensitivity to corrosion . That has been the point of my thread; so I dont think it is mute.

Pos

I must have missxed it. Can you elaborate more on a grounding scheme that reduces the sensitivity to corrosion.

 

[posplayr]

reddirtrider

reddirtrider

I must have missxed it. Can you elaborate more on a grounding scheme that reduces the sensitivity to corrosion.

From post #9

Summary:

So what this analysis suggests is that:

1.) The R/R (-) should be SOLIDLY connected to frame ground.
This avoids current sharing between the 2A charging current returning from the battery and the 10A load returns. By having the R/R grounded the voltage sensitivity to resistance between the R/R (-) and the Battery (-) is 1/6 (i.e. 2A v.s. 12A)

2.) The battery should NOT be connected to frame ground.
This causes current sharing as described above in 1.)

If there is not strap between the R/R (-) and the battery (-) as Suzuki delivered the GS, then all current return paths have to go through the frame ground to the R/R (-) as indicated by the factory schematic. There is no other path.

If an additional wire is added between the R/R (-) and the battery (-) to improve regulation of the R/R, then it is important to maintain the R/R (-) frame ground to avoid mixing charging current returns from the battery with load current returns sneaking through the motor mounts and starter ground strap.

If the ground strap is not there and you loose connectivity of the R/R (-) ground then the R/R will smoke as it tries to shunt all of the stator power.

Pos

 

[Agemax]

this thread is getting way to heavy.
what you are all saying is make sure all the earth connections are good........
is that right?

 

[reddirtrider]

From post #9




If there is not strap between the R/R (-) and the battery (-) as Suzuki delivered the GS, then all current return paths have to go through the frame ground to the R/R (-) as indicated by the factory schematic. There is no other path.

If an additional wire is added between the R/R (-) and the battery (-) to improve regulation of the R/R, then it is important to maintain the R/R (-) frame ground to avoid mixing charging current returns from the battery with load current returns sneaking through the motor mounts and starter ground strap.

If the ground strap is not there and you loose connectivity of the R/R (-) ground then the R/R will smoke as it tries to shunt all of the stator power.

Pos

From what I've read you added another path to ground from the RR negative. I'm confused as to why that reduces the sensitivity to corrosion when it can corrode also. I'm also confused as to why you're tring to eliminate sneak paths, yet add another.

I'll bow out of this discussion since I'm not following the logic. I'm obviously not up to the task.

 

[posplayr]

Simple as it gets

Simple as it gets

this thread is getting way to heavy.
what you are all saying is make sure all the earth connections are good........
is that right?

Summary:

So what this analysis suggests is that:

1.) The R/R (-) should be SOLIDLY connected to frame ground.
This avoids current sharing between the 2A charging current returning from the battery and the 10A load returns. By having the R/R grounded the voltage sensitivity to resistance between the R/R (-) and the Battery (-) is 1/6 (i.e. 2A v.s. 12A)

2.) The battery should NOT be connected to frame ground.
This causes current sharing as described above in 1.)

 

[reddirtrider]

this thread is getting way to heavy.
what you are all saying is make sure all the earth connections are good........
is that right?

Last post from me - I'm not sure what anyone else is trying to say, but that's what I would recommend. All connections.

 

[Agemax]

Summary:

So what this analysis suggests is that:

1.) The R/R (-) should be SOLIDLY connected to frame ground.
This avoids current sharing between the 2A charging current returning from the battery and the 10A load returns. By having the R/R grounded the voltage sensitivity to resistance between the R/R (-) and the Battery (-) is 1/6 (i.e. 2A v.s. 12A)

2.) The battery should NOT be connected to frame ground.
This causes current sharing as described above in 1.)

so the battery should be connected to where? the crank case as standard or where? surely they are all connected so i am confused now!

 

[duaneage]

Summary:

2.) The battery should NOT be connected to frame ground.
This causes current sharing as described above in 1.)

This statement disguised as fact is confusing the hell out of people. It also does not make sense as the frame and engine are essentially the same as far as ground is concerned.

It leaves some to wonder where to connect their negative lead from the battery. Here is a suggested change to the Summary

2.)Connect the battery through a large , 8 gauge black wire to the engine. There is usually a bolt in the middle of the transmission at the rear for this purpose. If yours is already connected there, ensure it is a clean connection and not corroded.

Is that better?

 

[BassCliff]

so the battery should be connected to where? the crank case as standard or where? surely they are all connected so i am confused now!

Hi,

The negative terminal of the battery needs to be connected to the crankcase for the sake of the starter. It is momentary, but draws the most current of any circuit on the bike. It needs that big ground strap connected directly to the (-) battery terminal, it's the shortest path.

I haven't moved my r/r ground yet. When I do, I'll report back any measurements and observations.

"The new oil thread." Heheh! I like it!

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[posplayr]

duaneage

duaneage

This statement disguised as fact is confusing the hell out of people. It also does not make sense as the frame and engine are essentially the same as far as ground is concerned.

It leaves some to wonder where to connect their negative lead from the battery. Here is a suggested change to the Summary

2.)Connect the battery through a large , 8 gauge black wire to the engine. There is usually a bolt in the middle of the transmission at the rear for this purpose. If yours is already connected there, ensure it is a clean connection and not corroded.

Is that better?

Hardly

If you refer to the Suzuki Schematics there are two different symbols for grounds. Below is a Katana schematic. If I write ground to a frame, I don't mean to a engine or to a negative terminal of a battery. Frame ground means attach to a solid part of the frame.

frame and engine are essentially the same

Given the discussion one could hardly be justified in making this totally unqualified statement.

If I say no frame ground, that is all it means don't tie the batt (-) to the frame. That doesn't mean to remove an engine ground strap for an engine ground no more than inferring you should remove the remove your head lamp because I did not mention headlamps either..

This statement disguised as fact is

This statement is worth drawing out into the light.

My summary statements were listed as a summary and conclusion from performing an analysis. Some of us seem to be having difficulty reading and comprehending the English language. No where did I state that this was fact. The supposition that it is masquerading as fact ignores the entire analytic context of the statement.

I will try to politely respond to your statements, but please provide the courtesy of at least reading and understanding what is written before launching unprepared attacks.

Pos

 

[duaneage]

I will try to politely respond to your statements, but please provide the courtesy of at least reading and understanding what is written before launching unprepared attacks.

Pos

OK Jim, you win. You handle all the questions from now on.

 

[posplayr]

So whose causing the confusion

So whose causing the confusion

OK Jim, you win. You handle all the questions from now on.

You give up so eazy

Well when you confuse theory with fact and can't address fact I guess I can understand why.

This thread has attempted to lay bare the grounding and power theory of GS charging operation.

If the thread goes silent, I'll understand.

Pos