GS Charging CONTEST

[mottyl]

OK, many others have guessed #5, so I have to offer the correct reason to win, right?

It's #5 because it's the only one that shows arrows going BOTH ways at EVERY device.


Now, to try to clear up some mis-information:

Although there is some heat generated in the rectifier, there is a lot more generated in the regulator portion.



Exactly backwards here.
The regulator does its job by shunting the current to ground until it senses that the voltage is too low, then switches it back to the load until it senses that the voltage is too high. The switching itself generates a bit of heat, but the shunting straight to ground creates a LOT of heat. If you could load the system to the point where the regulator is sending all the current to the load and there is not quite enough voltage to trip the shunt, it will be running the coolest. The problem is that the load would have to vary with engine speed, as the output is also controlled by engine speed.

The problem is compounded if you have a stator with smaller wire that starts producing charging voltage at a lower RPM. It will continue to produce even more voltage as the RPMs rise, all this excess needs to be shunted to ground (causing heat). A better solution would be slightly larger wire in the stator and an FET regulator, which has fewer losses in the rectification and regulation processes, meaning that it charges sooner and runs cooler.

.

Exactly Backwards!

So if you read it in reverse does it make sense?

This morning I looked at the charging schematic and see what you mean. At little or no load it is shunting to ground.

Last night my head was comparing it to a power supply. If it is sitting there at idle there is little heat. Once you apply a load and draw current through it then it heats up.

Happy Friday everyone.

Chris

 

[2BRacing]

Correct answer is #5.

Reason: When GS is running, the stator's output is more than that of the battery, and so the stator (and not the battery) produces the greater amount of power that feeds the GS electrical system. So the current has to return to the stator (and not the battery), and it does this through the R/R (-) via part of the internal diode bridge.

 

[posplayr]

OK looks like we got a bunch of responses, and the they are starting to slow down.

Get your answers in, we might end this a little early to keep up interest.

 

[bakalorz]

OK I have decided to have an Educational GS Charging Contest, however it is not completely educational because I'm offering to deliver this Brand Spanking New "Duanage HONDA R/R" to the winner. Duane hand picks these babies, connectorizes for easy install and tests them. If it is busted (or not) he even takes them back.

The Rules:

RULE #1.) The prize is shown below. delivered to the winner via USPS.


RULE #2) First person to correctly answer the following question by posting the CORRECT answer and the CORRECT explanation to this thread.

Determining if an answer is CORRECT should be unambiguous; it is #1,#2,#3,#4,#5, or #6.

On the other hand, you need to explain in at least simple term why the answer is correct. I'll be the judge of what is a suitable explanation.

RULE #3)
The question is:

Rule #4) Chef1366 already knows the answer and is disqualified.

Rule #5) Contest ends 6:00 PM Sunday Nite April 18th 2010

P.S. HINT : The Suzuki Manual has the answer under "Charging System"

Hi Posplayr,

I'll submit that none of the available answers is actually correct, and my answer is "none of the above"

The correct answer is that the situation alternates rapidly and continuously between your #5, and my new drawing #7.

Drawing #5 would apply during those parts of the cycle when the regulator is not shunting.
Others have given the rationale for drawing #5, and I don't think I need to repeat any of that.

Regarding the inclusion of drawing #7
When the Regulator part of the R/R is regulating, it does so by briefly shunting all the power of the Stator internally.
(this occurs in the connections between the stator and R/R and those currents are not shown in any of drawings 1-7 above)
During that time, the stator and R/R are effectively not in the external circuit (battery and GS) at all, and all the loads on the bike draw their power directly from the battery.
This corresponds to drawing 7.

--

Now I suspect you might argue that my description is either not one of the provided posibilities, or is getting too detailed and complicated, but I would counter with four thoughts.

1st, You used and capitalized the word "CORRECT" several times above when describing your desired answer.
Usually when choosing between several alternatives which are all more or less correct, the simplified case may be used to explain things to beginners, but the more detailed answer is the one considered more "correct"
For example: are the orbits of planets circles or ellipses? is it more correct to assume frictionless motion or motion with friction included?
Using these guidelines my answer is clearly more "correct" than the provided potential answers.

2nd, while all this may seem like a small nitpick compared to just averaging over time and saying the answer is only #5, it actually is pretty important depending on what you are analyzing.
During the shunting part of the cycle, ALL the power requirements of the bike are met by the battery, and the pulse of current the battery supplies is an order of magnitude larger (and in the opposite direction) than the average charging current.
Depending on what you are analyzing, that pulse will have significant implications.

3rd, you said you wanted this to be an educational contest ... I would say that learning additional details of how the R/R functions is educational. Even if someone would choose to use the simpler model in a given situation, they would now do so as an educated choice and understanding the possible implications of that choice, rather than just not realizing that there is additional complexity

And finally, while the rules of this contest steer one to specify a simple answer, REALITY is not so simple. In this case the actual physical operation of the circuit says the answer really is not one of the preformed choices provided us. If you actually want the "correct" answer ... It is more complex than the choices which were provided ... And if you actually want to analyse how a circuit behaves, you will need to use the REAL analysis, not the simplified one ... If you want to calculate the voltage dropped in some of the wiring, or the heat rise, you WILL have to use drawing seven as well in your answer ... Or your answer will be wrong ... And for predicting the actual behavior of the actual wiring on the bike, my answer will give more accurate numbers than the other options provided. Which as far as I am concerned makes it "CORRECT"

---

In conclusion, it's fine to just use drawing 5 to provide a simplified explanation when desired; but if a detailed/correct analysis is required, then both drawing 5 and drawing 7 must be included.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[gggGary]

I'm with wonder Steve the flows must be balanced the hot and ground flows must be in opposite directions. Only #5 shows balanced flows at all three points. Whether the - current flows through a wire or the frame is irrelevant. The amount of current flowing to (or from) each of the three areas can vary extensively. but the - flow will match the + flow The battery can be either load or source. the accessories will always be a load and the alternator will always be a source. The R/R has diodes that prevent the alternator from being a load or at low or no engine speed it would be.

 

[posplayr]

Hi Posplayr,

I'll submit that none of the available answers is actually correct, and my answer is "none of the above"

The correct answer is that the situation alternates rapidly and continuously between your #5, and my new drawing #7.

Drawing #5 would apply during those parts of the cycle when the regulator is not shunting.
Others have given the rationale for drawing #5, and I don't think I need to repeat any of that.

Regarding the inclusion of drawing #7
When the Regulator part of the R/R is regulating, it does so by briefly shunting all the power of the Stator internally.
(this occurs in the connections between the stator and R/R and those currents are not shown in any of drawings 1-7 above)
During that time, the stator and R/R are effectively not in the external circuit (battery and GS) at all, and all the loads on the bike draw their power directly from the battery.
This corresponds to drawing 7.

--

Now I suspect you might argue that my description is either not one of the provided posibilities, or is getting too detailed and complicated, but I would counter with four thoughts.

1st, You used and capitalized the word "CORRECT" several times above when describing your desired answer.
Usually when choosing between several alternatives which are all more or less correct, the simplified case may be used to explain things to beginners, but the more detailed answer is the one considered more "correct"
For example: are the orbits of planets circles or ellipses? is it more correct to assume frictionless motion or motion with friction included?
Using these guidelines my answer is clearly more "correct" than the provided potential answers.

2nd, while all this may seem like a small nitpick compared to just averaging over time and saying the answer is only #5, it actually is pretty important depending on what you are analyzing.
During the shunting part of the cycle, ALL the power requirements of the bike are met by the battery, and the pulse of current the battery supplies is an order of magnitude larger (and in the opposite direction) than the average charging current.
Depending on what you are analyzing, that pulse will have significant implications.

3rd, you said you wanted this to be an educational contest ... I would say that learning additional details of how the R/R functions is educational. Even if someone would choose to use the simpler model in a given situation, they would now do so as an educated choice and understanding the possible implications of that choice, rather than just not realizing that there is additional complexity

And finally, while the rules of this contest steer one to specify a simple answer, REALITY is not so simple. In this case the actual physical operation of the circuit says the answer really is not one of the preformed choices provided us. If you actually want the "correct" answer ... It is more complex than the choices which were provided ... And if you actually want to analyse how a circuit behaves, you will need to use the REAL analysis, not the simplified one ... If you want to calculate the voltage dropped in some of the wiring, or the heat rise, you WILL have to use drawing seven as well in your answer ... Or your answer will be wrong ... And for predicting the actual behavior of the actual wiring on the bike, my answer will give more accurate numbers than the other options provided. Which as far as I am concerned makes it "CORRECT"

---

In conclusion, it's fine to just use drawing 5 to provide a simplified explanation when desired; but if a detailed/correct analysis is required, then both drawing 5 and drawing 7 must be included.

I look forward to your reply.

I cant answer anything specific while the contest is going on but you might want to refer to this link.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=967435&postcount=82

 

[tkennedy]

I'm going to say #4 because I know nothing about charging systems other than mine is no good and comes from my living room wall. I feel like I have read somewhere that the current goes back to the battery, thus creating a charge for itself.

 

[bakalorz]

I cant answer anything specific while the contest is going on but you might want to refer to this link.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=967435&postcount=82

Ok, I looked at that, and I have questions ...

The first two figures look pretty much as I expected.

The third does too, except for one thing:
According to the text, the blue line is the current coming out of the regulator.

So that would be measured at point X (or alternatively, W) in this figure.

But if I am reading your scope right, the blue line in fig 3 is spiking down to -10 amps during shunting.
As I understand the regulator, it shouldn't do that.

So I wondered, what if the current probe were at point Y (or Z) ...
THEN the trace would make sense, because the -10 amps is the battery feeding the bikes loads ... It would also make the quote: "The charging current is 2 amps in this graph as measured by my averaging scope"
make sense.

And further, It would be VERY good news for me ... since that strongly supports the description I gave of the ground currents in the post above (i.e. having a negative pulse thats much larger than the average charging current) ... which would mean I win the contest ...


So ... is all that right ???

 

[posplayr]

Ok, I looked at that, and I have questions ...

The first two figures look pretty much as I expected.

The third does too, except for one thing:
According to the text, the blue line is the current coming out of the regulator.

So that would be measured at point X (or alternatively, W) in this figure.

But if I am reading your scope right, the blue line in fig 3 is spiking down to -10 amps during shunting.
As I understand the regulator, it shouldn't do that.

So I wondered, what if the current probe were at point Y (or Z) ...
THEN the trace would make sense, because the -10 amps is the battery feeding the bikes loads ... It would also make the quote: "The charging current is 2 amps in this graph as measured by my averaging scope"
make sense.

And further, It would be VERY good news for me ... since that strongly supports the description I gave of the ground currents in the post above (i.e. having a negative pulse thats much larger than the average charging current) ... which would mean I win the contest ...


So ... is all that right ???

if you read the text I have a current clamp alternating between a stator leg and the R/R(+) OUTPUT. I left out the 2 amp charging plot because it was identical to the 10 amp in terms of ripple and I could vary it +/- an amp or so with RPM. I was mesuring the R/R out at "X"


http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=967419&postcount=81

 

[trippivot]

nope. none of the above.

nope. none of the above.

The paths have to be shown separately for me to get on board with the
question.

1. 3 wires from the stator to the R/R. then 1 main wire to the Battery - first we are creating E.M.F and changing it to D.C. and getting it to the storage unit-battery-.

then

from the battery to the fuse block via key switch on to the GS positive loads (including the other switching wire to the R/R)

Negative Grounds are ALL universal and connected.

hot (+) are not universal and all connected between the R/R and main loads.

the battery is a buffer the volt spikes so spikes do not pop bulbs and other weird electrical problems.

if the battery is not in between the R/R and all the running loads wired properly we will have crazy electrical problems like the forums are full of.

 

[Mad GS 750 E]

I think its #5 ,all the currents return to R/R ,and is burned off as heat.Thats why in your GS system health tread you tell us to do the single point ground as close to the R/R as possible,from the harness,frame, and battery.Posplayr your thread on the electrical system really helped me out,you are the man. (I do get extra points for A$$ kissing right) LOL!

 

[tkent02]

The correct answer is to clean all of your electrical connections and grounds when you get a bike and again every ten tears or so whether it needs it or not.

 

[posplayr]

The correct answer is to clean all of your electrical connections and grounds when you get a bike and again every ten tears or so whether it needs it or not.

Freudian Slip?

 

[bakalorz]

if you read the text I have a current clamp alternating between a stator leg and the R/R(+) OUTPUT. I left out the 2 amp charging plot because it was identical to the 10 amp in terms of ripple and I could vary it +/- an amp or so with RPM. I was mesuring the R/R out at "X"


http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=967419&postcount=81

Yes, as you said, measuring at X is what I was assuming at first, due to the text ...

which is why fig 3 in http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=967435&postcount=82
didn't completely make sense.

If you look at the blue line (putatively R/R current out) it goes to Negative 10 amps ...

I.e. that would mean 10 amps going the wrong way into the regulator for part of each clamping cycle ...

Since I don't think that could happen, I figure there could be 3 possibilities:

1) I am mis-reading your scope ... (I think "0" is on the axis, is that right)

2) There really is 10 amps going the wrong way into the R/R (I don't believe that to be possible, but convince me it's true if you believe it)

3) You were actually measuring at Y (i.e. battery charging current) and forgot to mention that you moved the probe. I still believe this to be true, since this is the only way the trace makes sense to me. (I also want it to be true, since this would basically mean I win a R/R)


If not, can you show me where I am wrong ?

 

[posplayr]

Yes, as you said, measuring at X is what I was assuming at first, due to the text ...

which is why fig 3 in http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=967435&postcount=82
didn't completely make sense.

If you look at the blue line (putatively R/R current out) it goes to Negative 10 amps ...

I.e. that would mean 10 amps going the wrong way into the regulator for part of each clamping cycle ...

Since I don't think that could happen, I figure there could be 3 possibilities:

1) I am mis-reading your scope ... (I think "0" is on the axis, is that right)

2) There really is 10 amps going the wrong way into the R/R (I don't believe that to be possible, but convince me it's true if you believe it)

3) You were actually measuring at Y (i.e. battery charging current) and forgot to mention that you moved the probe. I still believe this to be true, since this is the only way the trace makes sense to me. (I also want it to be true, since this would basically mean I win a R/R)


If not, can you show me where I am wrong ?

I'm resting up for a trip out Hwy 33, so dont have a bunch of time. The current plots (using the current clamp) were alternatively between three places but only the first two were shown.
a.) The stator wire measuring AC current (clamping a yellow wire at the R/R connector) ,
b.) The R/R (+) red output (again clamping the total current from the R/R your drawing "X") and
c.) not shown (because it looked identical to a. except for the differences in average current ) I moved the clamp to the Red wire between battery and fusebox (Your point "Y").

 

[Roger P.]

All return current flows through the arc created by the regulator frying itself to ground.

 

[posplayr]

All return current flows through the arc created by the regulator frying itself to ground.

So all the current is consumed in power and light?

 

[gs road racer]

All return current flows through the arc created by the regulator frying itself to ground.

Ok this entry wins....it happens!!Watch out for that arc.......too funny

 

[Roger P.]

So all the current is consumed in power and light?

No. A good deal of it is used up in creating the smell as well.

http://www.realclassic.co.uk/suzukigsx550.html

 

[posplayr]

OK I think we got enough entries so first lets go with what the correct answer is. Bet just before we do this lets have a little explanation of how electricity works. This is in the form of an analogy but it really is closer to electrical flow and helps explain what is going on.

Here is a picture of a tube laying flat on a table (no gravity effects) and it is filled with many small metal balls that allow them to roll very easily inside of the tube. A magnet is passes close to the tube and pushes on one of the balls (at least it only pushes on the ones in proximity to #1). The push on that one ball causes the next to be pushed which in turn pushes the next until the last comes around and pushes from behind. But in reality the push from behind can't be any more than the push on #1 ball because it is the #1 ball that started the push to start with.

The only thing that keeps these balls from whizzing around is a small resistance (shown as some foam in the tube). In order to keep the balls (electrons) moving you have to keep pushing (applying voltage). As soon as you stop pushing, the balls stop because the foam grabs the balls (electrons). The balls have very small mass (like electons) and there is little momentum.

I'm hoping this is a useful visual isation tool to understand how voltage (or pressure or magnetic force) pushes electrons (little balls) around a circuit creating current which is balls per second or electrons per second.

So other than this being a useful visualization tool it should be clear that electricity runs in CIRCUITS or loops. Electrons never leave the wire, they just move from one copper atom to another (silver and copper wire or even steel could be interchanged or mixed).

Electrons DO NOT get pushed down a wire to be expended (into a heap on the ground ) into HEAT.

Electrons DO get pushed down a wire and when going past a resistance cause HEAT.

Current always has to run in a closed CIRCUIT

OK next and we are almost there, in electrical CIRCUIT analysis there is something called "cut sets". A cut set is a way of analyzing circuits by drawing a dividing line (i.e. a cut) across a circuit to divide the circuit into two sets. In the case of our circuit above if we divide the page in two into a top and a bottom, we have an upper and a lower cut sets. This may seem trivial but the total current flow into the "cut set" is zero, and from either top or bottom side the total flows going into that side are equal to the total flows coming out.

This is really the only way to have a circuit.

So it doesn't matter how complex of a circuit we have, if we can draw a line dividing all current flows between a top and a bottom, a left or a right or any other division then the total flows into that set has to equal the total flows out of.


OK by this time, it should be no surprise that this concept of a circuit of electrical current I'm belaboring must apply to the contest.:-\\\

So as was stipulated , the R/R (+) RED is generating enough current to both supply the GS electrical loads as well as charge the battery. It is the source of all the current (see the little red arrows). If we draw a cut set across the R/R (there are no other sneak paths for current from anything behind the R/R to bring current to the battery or GS ) then all the current coming out or the R/R(+) RED must return back to the R/R (-) in black.

So looking at all the 6 options below, the answer has to be #5 as it is the only one with a balanced current flow . Everything coming out of the R/R(+) red returns back to R/R(-) black.

In fact it should be no suprise (as Steve pointed out) #5 is the only one that will balance out all the flows if we draw three different cut sets across each device in the diagram.

Oh I'll describe this next

P.S. HINT : The Suzuki Manual has the answer under "Charging System"