GS1000/1100 straight cut crank and clutch gears?

[Chuck78]

Would it be a terrible idea to run a Falicon straight cut clutch gear on a welded crank with an MTC straight cut gear? Or are the gears cut in a nearly identical fashion?
I figured it would be questionable, but wanted to inquire anyway in the odd chance that maybe it has been considered okay.

I have a chance to buy a billet 1100 Falicon basket with straight cut gear for the same price as taking my 1100G cast basket and upgrading it to the H.D. backing plate/rivets/springs and MTC straight cut gear to match my new crank.

it'll be in an 1105cc GS1000 road racer with a modied 1100 4v 66mm "stroker" (1.2mm more than a 1000 crank) crankshaft with 1085 pistons and about 10.4:1 260 degree duration .365" lift Yoshimura cams CR31 smooth bores ported cylinder head 4-1 k&n etc. Vintage road racer engine that may get abused now and again.

I figured with these cams, I'm probably safe on the power output with an upgraded 1100 stock basket, but for a similar price getting a billet basket used would be very sweet...

 

[Chuck78]

Well the guy with the Falicon bullet basket and straight cut gear now informs me he also has a GS1150 MTC straight cut gear and OEM 1150 basket... I know the rivets to assemble the backing plate are slightly larger on the 1150. Would all of the 1100E/1100G parts fit on the 1150 basket?

I also have another guy with an MTC billet basket that has a broken spring, but there is a bit of rust pitting on the inside bearing surface where the large roller bearing cages ride... that had me a little concerned as I don't want to compromise the fit and wear there.
I may get both in hopes that the 1150 basket straight cut gear is the same as the 1100/1150 old mtc billet basket. Thoughts?

Rust:

Billet MTC basket???? I thought it was odd that it was still just riveted, not welded. Green springs were definitely not stock as far as I know, however... I've not seen a basket that looked like this in a 1000, 1100, 750, 550, etc... other "billet" baskets however all seem to have the bottom inside piece that the rivets are pushed through as one single piece with the outside portion. This has the inner portion as a separate steel piece (?)...how does that work? Must interlock very well into the outer basket portion...

 

[Chuck78]

And then here's the 1150 basket specific MTC straight cut gear this other fella says he'll sell me for dirt cheap... plus an 1150 stock basket thrown in to mount it to...

I am just wondering which gear MTC would have used in their billet basket, the 1100 with its smaller rivets, or the 1150 gear? Would it be okay to run that gear with the surface rusting on the inner bearing surface?
Ya know if it really came down to it, I am assuming the only difference between the 1100 and 1150 gears would be the diameter of the rivets. I suppose one could bore out the rivet holes in the basket larger to fit the 1150 gear if needed...

thoughts????

 

[sharpy]

One with the rust ill just walk away, thats a no brainer for me, sorry to say

 

[Chuck78]

I was thinking if I could get it for a good enough deal, just swap the gear on it (bearing surface is integral to the gear if I recall, right?) With another. That's why I was asking if the 1150 gear would work on the mtc basket...

Also wondered "just in case" if the 1150 setup would take all the rest of the parts from my 1100G basket.

 

[Chuck78]

I really like the style of that MTC billet basket, but a new gear would run in the high $200-something range, & not sure if it takes an 1100 or 1150 gear.

The guy with the Falicon basket called MTC and they said the same manufacturer supplies MTC and Falicon with their straight cut gears(that's why the crank gears look identical), so the Falicon basket is 100% compatible with the MTC crank gear.

He also is offering me an MTC straight cut clutch primary gear for a gs1150 AND throwing in a stock 1150 complete basket for something like $120 if I recall...

Stock 1150 basket plus h.d. backing plate and straight cut gear should be more than adequate for a 112-ish hp max 1105cc GS1000...but the lure of a billet basket is very appealing, especially the lightened MTC style...

 

[bobgroger]

1100 is a 87 tooth gear, 1150 is 89. AFAIK they are all OEM Suzuki gears, Katana or 750 are different ratios. I got a 1100 helical gear billet basket for a slider (works with non-slider) on eBay for $200. Straight cut is important around 130HP, from what I have heard. 1100G and 1100e are the same basket BTW.

 

[Chuck78]

Ahhh VERY good to know bobgroger, thank you for saving me from a $120 mistake!

 

[TeamDar]

Just a heads up. If you put a GS1100 basket in a chain drive GS1000 you will need a spacer to fit the engine cover over it or you will have to machine the basket to make it shorter and use less plates. Dar

 

[Chuck78]

Just a heads up. If you put a GS1100 basket in a chain drive GS1000 you will need a spacer to fit the engine cover over it or you will have to machine the basket to make it shorter and use less plates. Dar

Yup, thanks for the concern!

"Billet alloy clutch cover spacer to allow the gsx1100 basket to fit into the gs1000 cases, without machining the basket and inner hub to fit. this also allows the use of the full amount of gsx1100 plates."

NickP @ Suzuki Performance Spares & GSR member is THE MAN....

 

[Chuck78]

So the guy with the Falicon billet basket for $500-ish has told me that the "GS1150" gear in an aftermarket MTC straight cut IS in fact the same gear as the 1100, tooth-count wise, but the spring spacing is the 1150 spacing and it only works on the 1150 basket. He assures me that the tooth count is the same (this sorta makes sense for mtc/falicon, as they would only need to make one straight cut crank gear).
He also said that the 1150 basket was lighter than the falicon Billet basket. Said he ran an upgraded stock 1150 basket in a sub-9 second SC drag bike...

for what he is asking, this looks to be my cheapest option by far, but will still need the $180+ h.d. backing plate upgrade. So at $300 for an upgraded 1150 basket and MTC straight cut gear...


One thing I was a bit concerned about was this photo of renobruce's basket and case. This is a 1000 with an aftermarket 1100 basket, & is very close (less than 1mm) to the cases where he (after this photo was taken) did some case grinding to get more clearance "just in case" due to flex under extreme loads.





This old no longer available MTC billet basket is still very tempting, as it may be the lightest of all and stronger than OEM, but will also require me getting a new spring and rivet kit and possibly a new straight cut gear due to surface rust on that one (compromised surface contact after parts of the gears have vanished due to rusting). Not the most economical performance upgrade. Probably a total of $475 or $515 to get that one back in action and looking 100% good if I go with a new gear to avoid meshing a brand new MTC crank gear with a clutch gear that has a pitted unevenly worn (rusted away) surface.

thoughts? 1150 basket with MTC straight cut gear, or old MTC billet basket needing rebuilt? MTC says they DO NOT weld the rivets as it weakens the metal, but they rebuild the baskets and press in new rivets. I would be tempted to weld them back in myself. I can see with heat affected zones that they do have a bit of a point. I'd lean towards welded however...

 

[posplayr]

Why not remove the rust with an electrolysis process(or other). It will surely remove material and not leave any deposits. There is plenty of tooth material surface area even if there is some microscopic pitting. From here it looks liek mostly surface rust.

 

[Chuck78]

Why not remove the rust with an electrolysis process(or other). It will surely remove material and not leave any deposits. There is plenty of tooth material surface area even if there is some microscopic pitting. From here it looks liek mostly surface rust.

Because at pushing around 110 horsepower on a bike that will get ridden very aggressively, and with a brand new crank gear on a welded crank, I was afraid to mesh a brand new crank gear with a basket primary gear that was no longer to the original surface spec and may have uneven surfaces due to rusting. Not worth the risk for a crank that would cost me $1400 to replace or probably $500 in crank labor/gear only to tear down and put a new gear on if anything really bad happened to it.

it looks pretty grimey in this shot, the rust on the faces of the teeth. I looked to confirm the seller's rebuttal, & even on the aftermarket baskets, the bearing surface on the inside that has very slight rust staining on this one, is an oem Suzuki bearing race that is pressed into the basket's primary gear. That is why MTC, APE, Falicon all request your old basket as a core for their build of the new basket.

 

[posplayr]

Because at pushing around 110 horsepower on a bike that will get ridden very aggressively, and with a brand new crank gear on a welded crank, I was afraid to mesh a brand new crank gear with a basket primary gear that was no longer to the original surface spec and may have uneven surfaces due to rusting. Not worth the risk for a crank that would cost me $1400 to replace or probably $500 in crank labor/gear only to tear down and put a new gear on if anything really bad happened to it.

110 hp is nothing much, especially for a straight cut gear, but you should do what makes you happy.

Rather than agonize over it, I would ask someone that probably knows as well as anybody else; Ask Ray.

 

[Chuck78]

110 hp is nothing much, especially for a straight cut gear, but you should do what makes you happy.

Rather than agonize over it, I would ask someone that probably knows as well as anybody else; Ask Ray.

My list of questions for Ray is ever growing, but I'm saving only the most important (i.e. 1000 vs 1100 d-port head porting, & GS425 porting and o.s. valves) for a phone call in the near future when I stop blowing all my paychecks on other go-fast GS & Rickman parts...

I'm sure the answer from the all-knowing GS gurus will be that helical gear and upgraded h.d. springs and rivets is all that's necessary for my power level, but I want to build the bottom end to take abuse, & leave room for future power upgrades on the top end...

I'm guessing 110hp. Ill be sending Ray either the D-port head or a 79 gs1000e head for road race porting. Probably stay with stock valves back cut or maybe aftermarket.
CR31 smoothbores
Yoshimura Isle of Man endurance race spec cams .365" lift 260* duration at 1mm lift
66mm stroker crank (modified 1100e crank with h.d. 1100g rods)
Wiseco 1085 pistons or possibly JE custom order pistons (they make slightly better pistons but offer none off the shelf for the gs1000)
1105cc 10.4:1 approximately with mild performance cams and road race head porting.

 

[Chuck78]

Perhaps my hp figure was a bit low. The stock 1000E made 75hp rear wheel 90hp crank claimed. The GS1100G made 98hp claimed, at 1074cc. Add k&n & pipe & tuned carbs, you should be at closer to 100hp and 108hp. Take the 108 figure and add ported head and cams, smoothbores carbs, & 31cc's additional plus higher compression...

...okay I think nick and I were not communicating well when I arrived at that power figure. He was saying a similar engine with .420" lift cams was right around 120hp. That would only likely be measured at the rear wheel via dyno, not crank hp or engine hp before driveline losses.

probably pushing 120+ hp at the engine before driveline losses. Correct me if I'm wrong. It would probably dyno at 100hp rear wheel.

 

[posplayr]

I'm not saying run the gear rusty, but once cleared of rust, any small pockets are not going reduce the load bearing capacity the tooth to any significant amount.
A straight cut gear has even more surface area that an angled gear.

My 1166, would break the clutch loose with HD springs and EBC disks at about 9K RPM. How much Hp is that, more than yours. This was with a stock 1100 gear/Gorilla basket. The reason you go straight cut is not because the gear can't handle the forces, it is because of the side thrust of the gears.

 

[BadBillyB]

One thing I was a bit concerned about was this photo of renobruce's basket and case. This is a 1000 with an aftermarket 1100 basket, & is very close (less than 1mm) to the cases where he (after this photo was taken) did some case grinding to get more clearance "just in case" due to flex under extreme loads.

The 4V GS1100 basket is taller than the GS1000 basket. If you cut the 1100 basket down enough to get it in the cases, you would have to eliminate 1 fiber plate (and use 1100 plates). And as the plates have less friction area as the 1000, you would not want to do this. What I am saying is to pay attention to the height of the basket assembly when deciding which one is the best. The 1100 friction plates and the 1000 friction plates are not the same. You will want either 8 (2V) friction plates or 9 (4V) friction plates. I ran an MTC "forged" GS1100 basket in my drag bike with 9 (4V) frictions but I had to machine the height of the basket down AND grind out the cases to the point that I wished I had heli-coiled that front center clutch cover bolt. The bolt hole had only 4 or 5 threads left in it. It basically took a lot of care and measuring to accomplish this. If you run that clutch spacer, the stock right side foot peg will have to be spaced out further to clear the cover, if you plan to use it.

 

[Chuck78]

Spacing out the cover is a non issue and why I decided to look into this route. It's a Rickman road race frame and the rear set foot pegs are set back quite a ways.

I will look into the clearance here this weekend. I will definitely do what I can to run all 9 plates. Part of the reason I opted to try out the ancient mtc billet basket was due to the beveled cut at the end of the basket where I'll be needing the most clearance. Less material needed to remove is best.

Thanks for all of the wisdom Billy, Nick, & others.

 

[Guest]

I spoke to Ray in the past about sc gears vs a hd welded baskey with helical. Even WITH helical he said up to 200 hp was fine. It has survived so far. The tranny didn't, but the basket and crank are fine.