GS400/500 Gr650 Hybrid engine

[rapidray]

Web will make the cams. I just need to find a set of cores. What cams are you using, for which head?
Ray.

 

[Rensdw]

Web will make the cams. I just need to find a set of cores. What cams are you using, for which head?
Ray.

I'm not using any cams atm, I have the stock GR650 cams, also I have a pair of GS450 cams, they both don't have enough lift.
I was planning on using a megacycle cam in the GR650 head, I don't know what a megacycle pair will cost and if a web regrind will be cheaper.

 

[GregT]

I'm not using any cams atm, I have the stock GR650 cams, also I have a pair of GS450 cams, they both don't have enough lift.
I was planning on using a megacycle cam in the GR650 head, I don't know what a megacycle pair will cost and if a web regrind will be cheaper.

Both will be hard overlay put on by welding. Both Megacycle and Web do good work in this area. Get a price off Ray and compare to Megacycle's list price....
FWIW, locally I pay $125NZ per lobe for a hard overlay buildup and grind, plus 15% tax. Back when our dollar was strong and the US weak, it was cheaper to buy from the US, now our dollar has dropped, it's local work again.

 

[60ratrod]

I need to sell my house to prep for my move to spokane wa in the next couple years and don't know when i'll have a garage again once i get the house sold, and don't want a ton of stuff in a storage unit.

 

[Rensdw]

Not much to say, I'm still waiting on my CP rods to start building the crankshaft.

Have a question though, does anybody have a straight cut gs750 clutch laying around to compare to a GS400 clutch? or atleast help me with some dimensions.
If the gear ratio/diameter is the same I wanna try to run straight cut gears.
I know I don't really need them.....but what the heck right?

Also I was looking at my Ducati 748 clucth the other day, it's the exact same diameter as the GS400 clutch!
If i can modifie the clutch basket so that I can mount a suzuki gear on in, and leave some spacing between the hub and gear then only thing I need to make is a aluminium casing with an oil seal

............yes I'm dreaming, but who knows, nothing is impossible.

 

[60ratrod]

Hell, you're this far into it and with everything you have designed/built/modified/had custom made, why not go further and try out the Ducati/suzuki basket hybrid idea? I think the biggest hang up with that would be with the basket depth if both oem and Ducati baskets aren't the same depth. You would either have to custom make a clutch cover, mod the original, or machine the Ducati basket to fit. But #1 or #2 would be the most likely. You would have to do some test fitting and dry installs once you get that far

 

[Rensdw]

Hell, you're this far into it and with everything you have designed/built/modified/had custom made, why not go further and try out the Ducati/suzuki basket hybrid idea? I think the biggest hang up with that would be with the basket depth if both oem and Ducati baskets aren't the same depth. You would either have to custom make a clutch cover, mod the original, or machine the Ducati basket to fit. But #1 or #2 would be the most likely. You would have to do some test fitting and dry installs once you get that far

Thanks for the input! depth wouldn't be a problem because once you have a "Dry section" by indeed modifying the stock cover you can have it stick out as far as you want.

I'll keep an eye out for a second hand Ducati clutch

 

[loud et]

First: I would still like to have this topic moved to "Performance/Tuning/Mods" if one of the moderators reads this, please move this topic.


So, not a whole lot has happened, CP Carillo is done making my pistons but the rods are still in the making, that is going to take another month or so.

I did paint my engine, here some pictures:

First a nice high quality basecoat.




And 5 layers black paint and three layers clear coat later:
(All the white dots are reflections, there is a lot of lights in the hangar )





Little bit of dust in the paint here ;/ not bad for a outside paintjob though.








Also most of the aluminium is polished, like a mirror!





Next I will have to make the cilinder and head look pretty, I need to finish the external oil lines and then build up the bottom end.
All the chain guides seem to line up nicely, more on this later.

Are you frigging serious with that polishing!!!?
Seriously amazing. Of all the things I can do, polishing is not one of them yet. My stuff is average at best. That is master level sh*t right there.
Super nice, and this whole thread is a good read.
Ps, I don't think the administrator /moderator can move this thread. I think you would have to delete it all and start over in the projects section.
Can anyone else verify that fact for the op? Or can he move the thread himself?

 

[Rensdw]

Are you frigging serious with that polishing!!!?
Seriously amazing. Of all the things I can do, polishing is not one of them yet. My stuff is average at best. That is master level sh*t right there.
Super nice, and this whole thread is a good read.
Ps, I don't think the administrator /moderator can move this thread. I think you would have to delete it all and start over in the projects section.
Can anyone else verify that fact for the op? Or can he move the thread himself?

Thanks, I'm pretty happy with the results myself

Looking at the amount of views I get here, moving this topic is not really needed anymore.

9 more days and then the cylinder head will arrive here in the netherlands (together with a complete Yamaha R6 lol), cant wait to start building the top end!

 

[Guest]

What a COOL! Build!!!!
I knew someone else who used GS450/GS500/GR650 parts to build a six speed 850CC twin.
Cannot wait to here how well it goes!!!
G

 

[Rensdw]

What a COOL! Build!!!!
I knew someone else who used GS450/GS500/GR650 parts to build a six speed 850CC twin.
Cannot wait to here how well it goes!!!
G

thanks

850CC!! ? was he gone mad? did the crank hold up? he did use the 450 plain bearing crank right?
Well....any details will be appreciated

 

[Rensdw]

An oldie worldie GS750 straight cut primary gear will not work, on the clutch side the big gear is aprx. 20cm in diameter, the GS400 clutch is 16.5cm
Next stop:.........Ducati clutch

 

[Rensdw]

So here you can see how the dry clutch is build up, I can modify the stock clutch basket to accept the ducati basket and everything that is on top of it.
I will need to modify the stock basket/gear in such a way that there will be enough space for oil seal number 16 in the drawing.
The stock Suzuki gear will be in the wet area, the clutch in a custom made cavity, I think I will keep the stock sidecover.
Another thing is the springs in the gear, I'll have to remove those and stick a solid rod in the holes, the Ducati clutch has dampeners already.
Beside the amount of work I will have to do I don't see any major issues here, I might have to make a custom nut because the gearbox shaft won't stick out enough to get the nut on.
I will take the clutch off my Ducati to make some proper measurements and compare everything, I have to replace the rusted springs anyway.

Now, the second option is to use the whole Ducati clutch assembly including the straight cut gear, I will need a custom SC gear for the GS crankshaft.
This will also complicate things with getting the clutch on the Suzuki gearbox shaft, i will have to look at the stuff IRL to see how to resolve that issue.

And while I'm at it, why not use the whole hydraulic operating gear too? that should be easy to retrofit.
The piston is small, and there is plenty of room there because of the stock clutch mechanism.



Please tell me this is dumb, useless, won't be cool in the end etc. etc. to save me a lot of trouble (<<<please don't)

 

[Guest]

From what I remember, as I did not pay much attention-4 cyl. guy, I think the bore was 85mm. And the cylinder use was a resleeved 650. And the 650 head and cases and crank as well. And I think the 500 6-speed trans was used too. Though there was something about the shifter mechanism being different??? Or was it the 450 was different?
Sorry, I do not know the bores and strokes of these to go any further.
Laters
G

 

[Rensdw]

Maybe he fitted the 650 crank in the 500 crankcase.

The GS500 has an inverter shifting drum, you can tell by the shifting lever it has no linkages.
If you put linkages on a GS500 you will have: 1 up for first gear and then 5 gears down.

 

[Rensdw]

Ok, I went to the workshop to dig into this clutch thing, good news and a challenge.

I took the GS400 clutch apart and started on taking the Ducati clutch apart, unfortunately I don't have a 32mm socket so I couldn't take the clutch off the shaft.
Laid all the parts side by side and compared the Suzuki outer basket to the Ducati basket, also I compared the clutch plates.

I laughed because it was funny to see how similar the clutches are, it is unbelievable!
The outer baskets are basically the same, same diameter, spacing is the same, the Ducati one seems to be stronger.
The inners are different though, together with the steel plates, diamters are roughly the same but teeth spacing/count is different.
Now the funny part; the clutch plates are 100% absolutely exactly f*ck*ng the same!
It is possible to fit Ducati plates in the GS400 clutch and the Ducati plates fit in the GS400 clutch, this made me so happy..
The nut on the ducati clutch is big and it looks like it would be easy making a custom nut that will fit the smaller suzuki axle.
The biggest issue here will be modifying the Ducati inner to fit on the suzuki shaft.
I will have to remove the clutch from the engine to be able to compare the inners.

Pics or it didn't happen!


Here you can see a Ducati plate in the GS400 basket

Now the challenge, clearing the ignition system:

This will be the stock position for the C5 system, the dry clutch cavity will start right under the left upper edge of the PCB.

If I make a backplate and mount the ignition like this I would gain a lot more clearance:

Here you can see how close it is to the ignition, the dry clutch cavity will take out a big chunk from the ignition "cavity"

I think I am going to design a thin walled "bucket", the bottom somewhat thicker with an oil seal and weld this into the sidecover, will be the easiest way of doing this.
Not going to use the hydraulic operating mechanism, maybe later but it doesn't have any major advantages over a good cable.

 

[Guest]

Very interesting!

 

[GregT]

If the ignition space becomes a stumbling block, it's possible to move it to the alternator side. There are Alternator rotors around with a lump on the OD which is used to trigger the ignition. Two ignition pickups needed in that sidecover and it'd work. One like this which is quite common is the Kawasaki 400/500 twin.
just another option.

 

[Rensdw]

If the ignition space becomes a stumbling block, it's possible to move it to the alternator side. There are Alternator rotors around with a lump on the OD which is used to trigger the ignition. Two ignition pickups needed in that sidecover and it'd work. One like this which is quite common is the Kawasaki 400/500 twin.
just another option.

Greg, I am familiar with those ignition systems, thank you for reminding me about them I hadn't thought about that as a possibility.
Although I would like to keep the C5 ignition, it is fully programmable, And I'm probably going to need that a lot, using an unknown oem ignition curve would be a crime on an engine like this

 

[60ratrod]

I wanna know how well that c5 ignition does and how long it'll hold up. I'm kinda over dynatek stuff. I've had 2 of their green 3 ohm coils take a dump on me, and their 1 year warranty doesn't give me warm and fuzzy feelings