GS850 Starter Replacement

[93Bandit]

Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum but I've been lurking around the site for a little over a year. I bought my first bike last year in late September. It's a 1983 GS850. It ran when I bought it but as with most older bikes it needed to be caught up on maintenance; tires, valve adjustment, carb cleaning etc... Anyways, I rode it while the weather was still nice. I've put maybe 1,500 miles on it since I bought it, plus a battery and clutch cable. I originally planned on going through it last winter to have it ready for DD duty in the spring, but I got engaged last December, moved in May, job change in July, and then married this August. So needless to say, I had many other things going on and the bike hit the back burner.

Well, finally got around to adjusting the valves. Bought the special tool, made a spreadsheet for calculating new valve shim size, and got to work. The engine ran pretty well before I adjusted the valves, but I could tell it needed top end work and probably a go-through of the carbs. But, I wanted it mechanically sound before I started trying to clean and tune the carbs. Anyways, the valves were way loose, many being .008"! Got them dialed in, all were .002-.003" except for intake of cylinder 3 which I could only get to either .000" or .004" based of the new shim sizes, so I chose .004" (based off of what I've read here, go loose if you have to).

After the adjustments I put the bike back together and she fired right up! I let it idle until it would run without the choke on, and killed it to finish putting it back together and gather up my riding gear. A few min later I attempted to start it again, and it cranked about 2 revolutions at normal cranking speed, but then quickly slowed cranking speed until it no longer turned over. At first I assumed the battery was dead since it had sat for a few months. I put a new battery in the bike when I bought it, so the battery is only a year old. I let the battery trickle charge all night and I tried again the next day. Still no crank, but the solenoid would click. Next I tried to use the 50 amp start function of my charger; no crank, only solenoid click. Tried jumping with a car battery; no crank, only solenoid click.

Next, I started inspecting wiring. The neg battery cable to the engine block was corroded at the block, so I removed the cable and cleaned the ground. Tried again, no crank, only a solenoid click. Checked static battery voltage, 12.4 V. When I press the starter button, voltage drops to about 11.6 when measuring at the battery. I measured voltage at the starter and it is about 11.5 V. I suspected maybe the brushes are worn so I tried to old "light hammer tap" trick, but still no crank. However I noticed the starter has a slight hum and almost acts as if it wants to crank, after the hammer tap.

So based of these findings, I'm suspecting either bad brushes or windings. Does everyone agree or disagree?

Also, how do you remove the starter in a GS850? I searched this forum but wasn't able to find starter removal for this specific engine. I did find mention of removing carbs and chain tensioner, but not the crank case cover. However, this was for smaller engines. Is it really necessary to remove the carbs and chain tensioner on the 850, just to get the starter out? I have PDF version of the shop manual for this bike but I don't think it's complete because there is no starter removal procedure anywhere. Only inspection once it's removed, and in one section it briefly mentions removing the two starter bolts and tapping it out. Other than than, no mention of the starter cover, starter cable, carb removal or anything else. Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

PS - I'm aware of the "new bike owner maintenance must do's" threads. I will be getting to those items next. First thing is getting it running again.

 

[Steve]

Congrats on all of the achievements over the last year. :encouragement: :clap: :clap:

There is no need to remove the carbs or the cam chain tensioner on the 850. It's a little bit tight, but very possible. It helps if you have some small ratcheting drivers that will handle a 7mm socket, and a 10mm socket. The 7 will remove the fasteners on the starter cover, the 10 will remove the starter cable, then the two bolts that hold the starter. Once you have the two bolts removed, you need to lift the right end of the starter just a bit, then slide the starter to the right, while keeping the right end lifted. It will be hard to slide, as the rubber o-ring will pretty much be stuck in place. You will need to pry the starter to get it to slide.

After you remove the starter, make some marks along the two joints between the end caps and the center barrel. Remove the two long screws that hold it all together, carefully remove the right end to expose the brushes and armature. Replacement brush kits are available from Stockers Starters, but you need to know whether you have a 2-brush or 4-brush system, so don't order before you know.

.

 

[93Bandit]

Hi Steve, thanks for the reply! and yes, lots of achievements in the last year lol. I feel like I've leveled up quite a lot!

Glad to hear the starter comes out without too much disassembly. I will get started on that tomorrow, hopefully. Have to change the starter in my Truck and change it's oil first. Then the toy. It's the month of starters...

 

[93Bandit]

So I found an 81 GS850 forsale that ran but he took the carbs off to rebuild and then ran out of time. I could probably get it for a song. My question is, will parts from his 81 fit my 83? Such as starter, carbs, etc??? If so, I think I can get it all plus the extra parts he has for less than a new starter for my bike...

 

[Big T]

All the motor parts are the same. There were changes to exhaust and body work on 83

 

[Steve]

The carbs themselves are the same, but you will need to change the "choke" mechanism.

.

 

[Redman]

Very good troubleshooting and testing for the starter problem.
Most posters tell us why they went to the store and how long they were in the store.
You give good data.

I suspect your starter needs to have the brushes replaced and the communtator cleaned up.
See if you have the 2 brush (Denso) or the 4 brush (Matsuba) starter. Look to see if they are warn real short or if have crumbled into nothing.
I can suggest a source for brush rebuild kit : Stocker Starter

Although I was expecting when you hit the starter button that there would be about no load on the battery so no voltage drop. You showed a bit of a voltage drop, but not a lot. So I think you will benifit from refreshing the brushes in your starter.

Here are some pics of what mine looked like. It would sometimes turn slow, and sometimes have to hit the button a few times to get it going. The brushes were worn real short and the commutator had a buildup on it.
http://s6.photobucket.com/user/RedMan52/library/2008_Aug_starter?sort=2&page=1

So I found an 81 GS850 forsale that ran but he took the carbs off to rebuild and then ran out of time. I could probably get it for a song. My question is, will parts from his 81 fit my 83? Such as starter, carbs, etc??? If so, I think I can get it all plus the extra parts he has for less than a new starter for my bike...

81 and 83 about the same bike.

Instruments are rearranged a bit different. Choke lever is on the left handle bar instead of in the center.
Oh, and the tank will not interchange because the mounting changed for 82.

But, yah, most all parts are the same.

 

[93Bandit]

All the motor parts are the same. There were changes to exhaust and body work on 83

Thanks for the feedback!

The carbs themselves are the same, but you will need to change the "choke" mechanism.

.

Thanks Steve!

Very good troubleshooting and testing for the starter problem.
Most posters tell us why they went to the store and how long they were in the store.
You give good data.

I suspect your starter needs to have the brushes replaced and the communtator cleaned up.
See if you have the 2 brush (Denso) or the 4 brush (Matsuba) starter. Look to see if they are warn real short or if have crumbled into nothing.
I can suggest a source for brush rebuild kit : Stocker Starter

Although I was expecting when you hit the starter button that there would be about no load on the battery so no voltage drop. You showed a bit of a voltage drop, but not a lot. So I think you will benifit from refreshing the brushes in your starter.

Here are some pics of what mine looked like. It would sometimes turn slow, and sometimes have to hit the button a few times to get it going. The brushes were worn real short and the commutator had a buildup on it.
http://s6.photobucket.com/user/RedMan52/library/2008_Aug_starter?sort=2&page=1





81 and 83 about the same bike.

Instruments are rearranged a bit different. Choke lever is on the left handle bar instead of in the center.
Oh, and the tank will not interchange because the mounting changed for 82.

But, yah, most all parts are the same.

Thanks for the info! I've had to do my fair share of diag and if you're going to ask anyone for help, it's in your best interest to do real testing and provide the results. I'm still learning though!


So the guy selling the 81 was asking almost $500 for the bike, I offered $100 and he took the bait. I'm picking it up today after work. I'll try to get some pictures posted of my 83 and this 81. It's loaded, it has the front fairing with windshield, the side saddle bags and the rear backrest bag (not sure what it's called), all hard shells. Supposedly he's already cleaned the carbs, they just need reassembly with the carb kits, he has new carb to head boots, and he bought pod filters (which I'm aware of leaning out the AFR) but he has the original air box too. It sounds like the bike is complete and just needs TLC like all these old bikes. And I got it all for $100 which I think is a steal, and my wife isn't mad at me! Although she asked me why I bought another non running bike if my other one isn't running yet. She thinks I'm having a midlife crisis at the ripe age of 24 lol. So anyways, I plan on swapping starters to see if I can get my 83 running again, then start trying to piece this 81 back together and see if the 83 starter can be rebuilt. Best case scenario, I get another well running bike for cheap and can flip it, worst case scenario I just got all the parts I'll need for $100. But if I get it running I'll probably keep it cause I'm a hoarder. :twistedevil:


Or, maybe I'll have a nice cruiser for the wife and I to go on road trips, and another with a few mods for ripping around town... We shall see!

I'll definitely keep you guys updated and may start a build thread if anyone is interested?

Thanks again for all the feedback. It's nice to know this forum is still full of active members.

 

[Redman]

Yes!
A bike for the wife is a good excuse, er, um, reason, er, um, justification for having a second bike.

Do post your progress.

Ah, now I see you are in Detroit.
Yah, the season came to an abrupt end the last couple days.
Well, might have an occasional 40-42 degree day in next couple weeks.
First hint of any road salt, and the GK gets stuck in far back corner, and the wifes bike gets used more.

.

 

[Steve]

Supposedly he's already cleaned the carbs, they just need reassembly with the carb kits, ...

Please don't use "carb kits". ray:

Even though he says he has "cleaned" the carbs, do it yourself so you will KNOW, then use the stock parts and an o-ring kit from cycleorings.com.

.

 

[93Bandit]

Yes!
A bike for the wife is a good excuse, er, um, reason, er, um, justification for having a second bike.

Do post your progress.

Ah, now I see you are in Detroit.
Yah, the season came to an abrupt end the last couple days.
Well, might have an occasional 40-42 degree day in next couple weeks.
First hint of any road salt, and the GK gets stuck in far back corner, and the wifes bike gets used more.

.

Yes it is! She's not quite receptive yet, but all in good time, haha.

Yes, I'm in metro Detroit. I moved here last year for work. I'm originally from Kansas, so these Michigan winters are definitely different than what I'm used too.

Please don't use "carb kits". ray:

Even though he says he has "cleaned" the carbs, do it yourself so you will KNOW, then use the stock parts and an o-ring kit from cycleorings.com.

.

I've read about using only the O-rings. I haven't had time to look at the contents of the kits yet, I've just seen the 4 boxes. I assume they'll come with the o-rings you're talking about. If so, can I just use those o-rings? As for cleaning the carbs, it doesn't look like he actually disassembled them so I will be going through them thoroughly, no worries! Pictures and more details on the bikes in my next post. Stay tuned!

 

[93Bandit]

Here is my 83 GS850. It has about 25k miles on it. Ran when I bought it, put about 1500 miles on it since. I recently adjusted the valves, and need to figure out the starter issue. Carbs probably need attention but I haven't been able to see how it runs after the valve adjustment. So we'll see what that did once it get it running again. It's my first bike, and I love it! Side covers are removed due to my diagnosis, but I have them and they're in good condition.



Here is my 81 I bought for $100. It's definitely in rougher shape than it appeared in the pictures (surprise surprise), so I'm not sure what my plans for it are. All the wiring is a mess, and probably needs to be replaced. It definitely needs more than the carbs rebuilt to get it running reliably. Brakes are stuck too. It looks like someone hacked the wiring up adding the fairing and trunk, so I may try to put the saddle bags and trunk on my 83 and paint them to match. I've got a removable windshield for the 83 so I don't think I'll ad the front fairing to it if I decide to go that route. Due to the rough condition of the 81, I'm considering stripping it down to make a bobber/cafe bike. Something to just rip around town on, and convert the 83 into more of a cruiser. Anyhow, here are some pictures of the 81 GS850.

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And here are the "twins" together in the garage.

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[Steve]

Your "twins" are more "siblings" than they are "twins". :-k

I think it has already been pointed out that there are differences between the '81 and the '83, but now you are introducing even MORE differences because your '83 is an "L" (technically a "GL") and your '81 is just a "G".

If you want to move the saddlebags to the '83, you will need a welder. The '81 brackets end in a saddle that goes over the frame loop at the rear footpeg/muffler mounts and get held in place with clamps. The '83 does not have that frame loop, you will need to cut off the saddle and weld on a tab that will bolt on with the footpeg mount. Not sure if the upper mount will be different, but it should work OK. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that your seat latch needs to be accessible under the trunk rack.

My wife has an '82 850L, which is virtually the same as your '83, my son has an '80 1000G with Vetter equipment, which is virtually the same as your '81.

.

 

[cowboyup3371]

The kits won't contain all of the O-rings you need whereas purchasing them from www.cycleorings.com gets you everything. You will also need to ensure the carbs have been synched after the valve adjustment which won't happen very well unless you thoroughly clean them too. Best bet is to do everything all at once.

 

[mikerophone]

93Bandit, this forum is the best there is for these bikes and you’ve got some great advice from some great members here, just take your time and do things right. The maintenance on these bikes isn’t difficult but neglect will take its toll, so stay on it and you’ll be fine.

As Steve mentioned, your 850’s are similar but not the same. I’ve torn down and put back together a couple of 850’s (G’s and L’s and while many things are interchangeable, several of them aren’t. Either way you slice it, you need to go through the carbs and winter is the time to do it, get the large Harbor Freight ultrasonic cleaner and the o-rings and go through them before spring, and by the time you get the starter and carbs “rebuilt” you’ll be itching to ride again.

Redman you’re right, the season did end abruptly for many, but I rode 50 miles yesterday and yes, it was cold, but beautiful. Hope they don’t start salting here in Chicago yet, it’s supposed to get down into single digits here tomorrow but luckily not looking like more snow for a bit.

Back to the differences on these “siblings” - I’ve seen Vetter fairings, brackets and boxes on Craigslist here and there so keep your eye out and maybe that will be less work than modifying the mounting points. And as mentioned you’ve got the 83 body which is yet another difference between your 850’s but I’d stick with the G model personally and yours seems like less work then that new $100 L you picked up...I’ve used the air box and carbs from an 81 L and 82 G interchangeably when the L was being restored from the frame up but the chrome covers and box shape differences were aesthetically different enough when on the G that I cleaned the other set up and switched it back. Don’t use pods or hack up your pipes or you’ll have to mess with the jetting but yes, you’ve got a project and a half cut out for you this winter, going through that wiring will be fun too...

 

[93Bandit]

Well I finally got my truck starter replaced so I was able to start tinkering on the bikes again. I took the starter from my 81 and put in the 83 and she fired right up! It was 28 degrees so I only rode it around the block a bit. Seemed like it ran better than before I did the valve adjustment, but without getting it up to temp and on the open road I won't know for sure. The valve train was definitely quieter than before. It clattered like non other when it was warm before I adjusted the valves.

After looking closer at the 81, it's way too rough to try to restore on the budget my wife gave me. And I don't want to hack up my 83 trying to adapt the saddle bags to it. So I think I'm going to take the fairing and saddle bags off the 81 and try to fix the wiring and get it running. I bought that various wire gauge and length spool set from Harbor Freight and may end up making my own harness for the essentials. Just depends on the overall quality of the wiring which I won't know until I start tearing into it. I've got a buddy who want's to get into bikes so I might work out a deal with him on the 81.

But right now it's too dang cold in the garage to be messing around out there. I need to get a space heater!

I will keep this updated as I make progress, but it will be slow!

 

[93Bandit]

Hello gentlemen, it's been a long winter! I can't wait to ride again. I haven't made any progress since my last update. It's been too cold in the garage and I've had a lot of personal things going on. It's supposed to warm up soon so I plan on replacing the carb to head boots with the new ones that came with my 81, change the fluids, and hopefully it'll warm up enough to go for the first ride! I will be sure to update when those things have been accomplished.

 

[Steve]

... I’ve used the air box and carbs from an 81 L and 82 G interchangeably when the L was being restored from the frame up but the chrome covers and box shape differences were aesthetically different enough when on the G that I cleaned the other set up and switched it back. ...

Just to illustrate this point, here is an '82/'83 airbox on an '81 G.

The same style airbox looks a LOT better on an '82 L.

.

 

[93Bandit]

Thanks for the comparison, Steve!


I don't know how many of you guys are following my Cafe build thread, but I finally got around to disassembling my old starter. The brushes were crumbled into nothing and the commutator worn. I'll post some pictures here later. If any of you have seen the pictures, do you think it's rebuildable, or should I just get a new starter?

 

[Steve]

I have refurbished a couple like that. If you don't have a lathe (I don't, either ), stick the armature in a large drill, spin it and file the commutator smooth. Install new brushes and bearings, assemble, use.

.