Hard welded rockers for mild 1100 cam?

[glib]

I've been reading about camshafts for the 83 1100ED/ESD. Web Cams "167" grind seems a good choice if I'm not wanting to do a lot of other mods but they insist that the rockers would need to be hard welded which is pretty costly. If I'm reading correctly, the lift difference would be from stock at .280 to the Web Cam .310. Would thirty thousandths really warrant the need for hard-welded rockers?

I see this mod as being a bit like tuning the ECU for a stock engine. Just fixing some overly conservative factory settings. Is that about right? I want to keep my airbox and stock exhaust (while it still looks nice).

 

[londonboards]

The cam followers/rockers on all of these engines are quite susceptible to wear, especially if they have been abused and had poor or no oil.

Any performance cam with a more aggressive profile, would add to the pressures that these things endure.

They are hardened at the factory but over time this wears off. The performance cams guys are simply covering themselves and asking you to get the rockers re-surfaced so they will be ready for the job.

 

[posplayr]

I've been reading about camshafts for the 83 1100ED/ESD. Web Cams "167" grind seems a good choice if I'm not wanting to do a lot of other mods but they insist that the rockers would need to be hard welded which is pretty costly. If I'm reading correctly, the lift difference would be from stock at .280 to the Web Cam .310. Would thirty thousandths really warrant the need for hard-welded rockers?

I see this mod as being a bit like tuning the ECU for a stock engine. Just fixing some overly conservative factory settings. Is that about right? I want to keep my airbox and stock exhaust (while it still looks nice).

The .310, .340 .348 grinds are all relatively with the .348 being comparable to a 1st and 2nd gen GSXR.

The bigger issue is the added spring tension you will need to keep the valves from floating. I ran .340 with no problems but I did run a top end oiler (Rapid Ray will not warrant an engine without one). The 0.348 will give a better 1/4 mile time than the 0.340 , but for riding in the twisties, my guess is the 0.340 is better. But then this is probably overshadowed by a 4:2:1 over a 4:1.

If you just want to add some pep then go for the 0.310, leave the springs stock (or replace with factor OEM replacements), forget about the top end oiler. You will need to bump up the main jets about 1/2 a step.

In reality, your bigger bang for the buck would be to get RS34's. With new cams the prices is going to to be similar to slight used set of RS carbs.

 

[glib]

The .310, .340 .348 grinds are all relatively with the .348 being comparable to a 1st and 2nd gen GSXR.

The bigger issue is the added spring tension you will need to keep the valves from floating. I ran .340 with no problems but I did run a top end oiler (Rapid Ray will not warrant an engine without one). The 0.348 will give a better 1/4 mile time than the 0.340 , but for riding in the twisties, my guess is the 0.340 is better. But then this is probably overshadowed by a 4:2:1 over a 4:1.

If you just want to add some pep then go for the 0.310, leave the springs stock (or replace with factor OEM replacements), forget about the top end oiler. You will need to bump up the main jets about 1/2 a step.

In reality, your bigger bang for the buck would be to get RS34's. With new cams the prices is going to to be similar to slight used set of RS carbs.

Would the carb change benefit the top end primarily? Does anyone change to RS34s and keep the stock airbox. Seems like I always see pods with any carb upgrade.

 

[glib]

The cam followers/rockers on all of these engines are quite susceptible to wear, especially if they have been abused and had poor or no oil.

Any performance cam with a more aggressive profile, would add to the pressures that these things endure.

They are hardened at the factory but over time this wears off. The performance cams guys are simply covering themselves and asking you to get the rockers re-surfaced so they will be ready for the job.

So it’s not the added lift that’s an issue but more like if you are going to start with new cams, do the lifters too?

 

[Nessism]

So it’s not the added lift that’s an issue but more like if you are going to start with new cams, do the lifters too?

New lifters are a great companion to new cams since all the wear surfaces are guaranteed to be true to spec. With used parts it's more of a gamble.

The following info is from the APE site...

The cam contact surface on all screw adjuster type Suzuki rocker arms is a soft material covered with hard chrome. Under the increased loads of higher spring pressures, cam lifts, etc. the surface caves in allowing the chrome to crack and peel off. This wipes out the rocker and cam lobe.

The solution is welding the contact pads with special hard face rod and regrinding the faces.

 

[glib]

New lifters are a great companion to new cams since all the wear surfaces are guaranteed to be true to spec. With used parts it's more of a gamble.

The following info is from the APE site...

The cam contact surface on all screw adjuster type Suzuki rocker arms is a soft material covered with hard chrome. Under the increased loads of higher spring pressures, cam lifts, etc. the surface caves in allowing the chrome to crack and peel off. This wipes out the rocker and cam lobe.

The solution is welding the contact pads with special hard face rod and regrinding the faces.

I see. Well I?ll put that off a bit longer.

 

[posplayr]

Would the carb change benefit the top end primarily? Does anyone change to RS34s and keep the stock airbox. Seems like I always see pods with any carb upgrade.

I'm pretty sure it will fit, that is why I mentioned it.

 

[glib]

I'm pretty sure it will fit, that is why I mentioned it.

Im sure it?s a good upgrade. Looks to be about $600 brand new which is better than I expected. The thought behind the question is that there is a weakest link in the ?chain? of airflow (air filter, airbox, carbs, porting, valves, cams and exhaust) and it could be a different component if you are looking for midrange torque or top end. You are probably right about the carbs. I?m just wanting to understand why.

 

[Steve]

One of the reasons to 'upgrade' the carbs is to make more power. "More power" comes from more air that is carrying more fuel. Yes, larger, or better-designed, carbs will allow more air flow, but the biggest restriction is the stock airbox. You mentioned that you want to keep it, that might be counter-productive.

While it's somewhat admirable to keep things somewhat stock-ish, you will have to step back and evaluate your real reason for changing things around. Your cams will allow a bit more air to flow, especially above mid-range. Will they flow enough air for the stock carbs to be a restriction? If you need to change the carbs, the airbox is still more restrictive than the carbs.

How will you be using the bike? If it will be a track day bike or a weekend corner carver that spends most of its time at higher revs, cams and carbs might make sense. However, if it is still going to be used as a daily driver, you don't want to get too carried away with the mods, as they tend to destroy lower-RPM civility.

.

 

[glib]

One of the reasons to 'upgrade' the carbs is to make more power. "More power" comes from more air that is carrying more fuel. Yes, larger, or better-designed, carbs will allow more air flow, but the biggest restriction is the stock airbox. You mentioned that you want to keep it, that might be counter-productive.

While it's somewhat admirable to keep things somewhat stock-ish, you will have to step back and evaluate your real reason for changing things around. Your cams will allow a bit more air to flow, especially above mid-range. Will they flow enough air for the stock carbs to be a restriction? If you need to change the carbs, the airbox is still more restrictive than the carbs.

How will you be using the bike? If it will be a track day bike or a weekend corner carver that spends most of its time at higher revs, cams and carbs might make sense. However, if it is still going to be used as a daily driver, you don't want to get too carried away with the mods, as they tend to destroy lower-RPM civility.

.

Definitely a weekend corner carver. So it sounds like the best route is to decide which cams I?ll want, but build around them first with the carbs/pods then exhaust then cams and any head work. That actually makes decent financial sense too I think.

 

[posplayr]

http://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...formance-GS1100E-Head-work&highlight=headwork

 

[glib]

http://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...formance-GS1100E-Head-work&highlight=headwork

Thanks Jim. Very nice thread. Read it all. I would like to know how much that head work costs though. A lot of reference to low cost but never any actual numbers. I dont even know the ballpark.

 

[posplayr]

Thanks Jim. Very nice thread. Read it all. I would like to know how much that head work costs though. A lot of reference to low cost but never any actual numbers. I dont even know the ballpark.

Price depends on where you go, but it can range from $300-$1000 depending on what is done.

You need to figure out your budget and then best how to make power within that.

 

[rapidray]

The .310 cams are drop in cams & will work FINE with stock rocker arms & stock valve springs. I recommend HIGHLY you add 750 oil pump gears & a top end oiler to help the cam & rocker life. These 2 additions also help the valve spring life as the extra oil helps cool the valve springs.
Ray.

 

[glib]

The .310 cams are drop in cams & will work FINE with stock rocker arms & stock valve springs. I recommend HIGHLY you add 750 oil pump gears & a top end oiler to help the cam & rocker life. These 2 additions also help the valve spring life as the extra oil helps cool the valve springs.
Ray.

Thank you for that. Since you referenced 750 pump gears, plural, I guess it’s not just the gear on the oil pump. I looked on eBay and prices vary from $13 used to $130 new but I only saw single gears offered.

Edit: Both drive and driven gears correct? I can only find the driven gear. Source?

 

[TeamDar]

http://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...1000-850-high-volume-oil-pump-gears&highlight=

 

[glib]

http://www.thegsresources.com/_foru...1000-850-high-volume-oil-pump-gears&highlight=

Thank you Dar. Are these off of dismantled bikes or previously unsold parts?

 

[TeamDar]

They are not new but show no wear. Dar

 

[rapidray]

When Dar runs out I have 34 sets.
Ray.