Head gasket GS1000G questions

[Matchless]

Mark,
Thanks, yes I am quite confident so far but I am the analytical type thus also want to know why and the cam chain o-ring still bothers me a bit. I just need someone who has actually used such a setup or knows the type of gasket to confirm.

 

[Matchless]

Here the cylinder end with the gasket on

 

[AirCooledHeaven]

Mark,
Thanks, yes I am quite confident so far but I am the analytical type thus also want to know why and the cam chain o-ring still bothers me a bit. I just need someone who has actually used such a setup or knows the type of gasket to confirm.

All those valve collets lying around is making me nervous, put them in a bag before you lose one :-D

 

[Matchless]

I noticed that on the photo as well. The butter holders are right behind just getting into the picture, they should be in there. Should have nailed some coke bottle caps next to each valve.
What oil do you suggest for the cylinder honing? I have a bottle of water soluble oil that I was planning to use with the hand honer and drill at 100rpm, and 3 silicon graphite stones. Opinions differ greatly here it seems.

 

[Guest]

since the cam chain tunnel has a grove quite close to the very edge i would still use the oring under the gasket

as for the crush washers for the outer studs, i'd use them only if you think they would impress into the gasket (if the gasket is soft enough for that to happen)
if the gasket appears stronger than that (and the crush washers would not sit IN the gasket) i'd use a very small amount of silicone around the outer studs holes on the gasket (top and bottom of the gasket)

 

[Matchless]

since the cam chain tunnel has a grove quite close to the very edge i would still use the oring under the gasket

as for the crush washers for the outer studs, i'd use them only if you think they would impress into the gasket (if the gasket is soft enough for that to happen)
if the gasket appears stronger than that (and the crush washers would not sit IN the gasket) i'd use a very small amount of silicone around the outer studs holes on the gasket (top and bottom of the gasket)

psyguy,
That makes good sense. I am doubtfull that the crush washers will indent into the gasket or fit inside the hole as it is made up of 3 layers of flat sheet metal and the old gasket did not have any there and did not leak as the coating on the outer layers seems to be the magic here. I think a spot of silicon as you mentioned is an excellent idea just to make doubly sure.

The o-ring should compress enough as the channel is wider than the ring and I really will only feel happy leaving it out if someone can tell me why and that is someone who has real practical experience with the same gasket. This gasket also does not have edges folded over and the three bare edges of the layers face the cylinder compression and the oil pressure and the old one again was the same and worked.
Thanks for the suggestions

 

[cranemonkey]

more head gasket issues...

more head gasket issues...

Sooo, I'm putting the motor of my 83GS850GL back together (after a brake job--don't ask), and I have one of these 4 layer head gaskets like in the previous posts. I install the rectangular o-ring (which does not sit nicely in the cutout) and the gasket and set the head on it. My problem is that there seems to be something preventing the head from sitting flat --I can rock it back and forth at its most downward point and there is 1/32 inch of play. Not liking this, I took everything off again and installed just the head. It sits flat-no play. I put the head gasket in and put back together-no play. I put the rec. o-ring back in and voila!! it rocks. My conclusion--the o-ring is preventing the head from sitting flat, and leaves a gap, not to mention the seemingly obscure stress of bending the head down on both side when torqued. I don't recall if the previous head gasket had a cutout for the rectangular o-ring or not. QUESTION: does original equipment head gasket cover the rec. o-ring, and if not, does the new 4 layer head gasket which sits on top of the rect. o-ring seal as the oring does? I am not happy with the way the recently machined surfaces come together and don't want to do this but one time. I have read all of the previous posts but am still unsure of if the o-ring is a critical component with this new head gasket. More thoughts? Matchless, thanks for posting your same issue--thought maybe I was crazy. You didn't relieve that concern, but maybe some one out there (psyguy, aircooledheaven) can definatively answer this tech issue. I sure would like to ride this year but only gonna rip into this thing one time.

 

[Matchless]

Sooo, I'm putting the motor of my 83GS850GL back together (after a brake job--don't ask), and I have one of these 4 layer head gaskets like in the previous posts. I install the rectangular o-ring (which does not sit nicely in the cutout) and the gasket and set the head on it. My problem is that there seems to be something preventing the head from sitting flat --I can rock it back and forth at its most downward point and there is 1/32 inch of play. Not liking this, I took everything off again and installed just the head. It sits flat-no play. I put the head gasket in and put back together-no play. I put the rec. o-ring back in and voila!! it rocks. My conclusion--the o-ring is preventing the head from sitting flat, and leaves a gap, not to mention the seemingly obscure stress of bending the head down on both side when torqued. I don't recall if the previous head gasket had a cutout for the rectangular o-ring or not. QUESTION: does original equipment head gasket cover the rec. o-ring, and if not, does the new 4 layer head gasket which sits on top of the rect. o-ring seal as the oring does? I am not happy with the way the recently machined surfaces come together and don't want to do this but one time. I have read all of the previous posts but am still unsure of if the o-ring is a critical component with this new head gasket. More thoughts? Matchless, thanks for posting your same issue--thought maybe I was crazy. You didn't relieve that concern, but maybe some one out there (psyguy, aircooledheaven) can definatively answer this tech issue. I sure would like to ride this year but only gonna rip into this thing one time.

Hi,
It seems as if the original OEM gasket and many other aftermarket types definitely did not cover the o-ring gasket indentation. The o-ring gasket sat inside the opening for the cam chain and the rubber gasket sealed cylinder metal to head metal and the head gasket did not touch the o-ring one. Now the newer gaskets cover the o-ring gasket channel completely and my question is - Why? I was thinking that if there are other makes than Suzuki with a similar sort of design from the same era maybe some reply will be forthcoming from there. I did contact the suppliers of the gasket set, but although they did reply it did not mean much, just that the set does not contain a rectangular gasket and I should get it from another supplier.
Fortunately I still have a way to go before its assembly time and hopefully more clarity comes to light soon.

 

[Matchless]

Some further browsing here http://www.cometic.com/faq.aspx#q7 has shown that Cometic make a MLS (Multi Layer Steel) head gasket with a Viton rubber layer on the two outer layers. They say that MLS gaskets are not to be used with o-rings or receiver grooves around the cylinder bores and a lot more.
These Athena headgaskets are very likely MLS and mine definitely has a black rubber layer on the outer and could be very similar to Cometic.

 

[AirCooledHeaven]

Sooo, I'm putting the motor of my 83GS850GL back together (after a brake job--don't ask), and I have one of these 4 layer head gaskets like in the previous posts. I install the rectangular o-ring (which does not sit nicely in the cutout) and the gasket and set the head on it. My problem is that there seems to be something preventing the head from sitting flat --I can rock it back and forth at its most downward point and there is 1/32 inch of play. Not liking this, I took everything off again and installed just the head. It sits flat-no play. I put the head gasket in and put back together-no play. I put the rec. o-ring back in and voila!! it rocks. My conclusion--the o-ring is preventing the head from sitting flat, and leaves a gap, not to mention the seemingly obscure stress of bending the head down on both side when torqued. I don't recall if the previous head gasket had a cutout for the rectangular o-ring or not. QUESTION: does original equipment head gasket cover the rec. o-ring, and if not, does the new 4 layer head gasket which sits on top of the rect. o-ring seal as the oring does? I am not happy with the way the recently machined surfaces come together and don't want to do this but one time. I have read all of the previous posts but am still unsure of if the o-ring is a critical component with this new head gasket. More thoughts? Matchless, thanks for posting your same issue--thought maybe I was crazy. You didn't relieve that concern, but maybe some one out there (psyguy, aircooledheaven) can definatively answer this tech issue. I sure would like to ride this year but only gonna rip into this thing one time.

The reason it's rocking is due to the O-ring. The O-ring seals through compression, so to have something to compress it will sit slightly proud of its mating surface, as you tighten the head it will squish down and seal. It's like when you fit a new o-ring to the oil filter housing, when you look at it the o-ring is proud of the surface. If the o-ring was flush then no compression would take place when its tightened and therefore no seal.

 

[AirCooledHeaven]

Hi,
It seems as if the original OEM gasket and many other aftermarket types definitely did not cover the o-ring gasket indentation. The o-ring gasket sat inside the opening for the cam chain and the rubber gasket sealed cylinder metal to head metal and the head gasket did not touch the o-ring one. Now the newer gaskets cover the o-ring gasket channel completely and my question is - Why? I was thinking that if there are other makes than Suzuki with a similar sort of design from the same era maybe some reply will be forthcoming from there. I did contact the suppliers of the gasket set, but although they did reply it did not mean much, just that the set does not contain a rectangular gasket and I should get it from another supplier.
Fortunately I still have a way to go before its assembly time and hopefully more clarity comes to light soon.

I can only imagine the o-ring should be fitted under the gasket. Otherwise the gasket will compress into the o-ring recess which I don't think would help the seal around the camchain tunnel.

 

[cranemonkey]

o-ring

o-ring

I thought about that--there are some problems with that train of thought, though. First is I torqued down the head bolts (properly) and afterward there was still a visible gap between the head and the jug body at the center point (cam chain housing, front). If there was a gap there, certainly there would be a danger of high compression gases escaping at other points around the head. Second, as I stated in a previous post, there will be bending forces acting on the head surface. I appreciate your input, I guess I want somebody to tell me it's ok without the oring, but I doubt it...more thoughts, please. I will check manuf. sites.

 

[Matchless]

What I have discovered and never knew is that the new MLS aftermarket headgaskets are coated with a thicker coat of Viton rubber on the outside layers to allow for thermal movement of the heads and cylinder metal, which apparently can destroy some gaskets. The thicker layer is that MLS for OEM use requires a nearly perfectly machined surface and even small blemishes may break this seal and can cause the gasket to fail. Apparently these must be installed dry as some compounds may attack the Viton layer or inhibit the flexibility of the Viton.

The reasoning around keeping the o-ring is sound so far, but still does not give an answer as to why the o-ring is not supplied with the new Viton covered MLS gaskets in the set, but definitely included with the older type gaskets, was this an error or on purpose?
I must add that my old aftermarket gasket that came off was also MLS, but not Viton covered. It had a very thin layer of something silver, that left resues on the aluminium surface like paint and that one had been installed with the gasket under the head gasket and had run like that since 1994. It seems as it will not be a problem if you do install the o-ring under the gasket, but the question still remains as to what Anthena suggests in this case with their latest gaskets. Does anyone know if they have an presence in the USA and we could maybe try to ask them? Or even ask any other aftermarket manufacturer??

 

[AirCooledHeaven]

Does anyone know if they have an presence in the USA and we could maybe try to ask them? Or even ask any other aftermarket manufacturer??

athena@athena-spa.com​

 

[Guest]

if the o-ring sits too proud of the surounding surface and you think it wont easily compress under the gasket - and especially if the head gasket has a rubber coating on both outer sides - i'd leave the oring out
there is enough flat surface between the inner cylinders and the cam chain tunnel to provide a good seal given the head gasket does have that rubber surface and the head/barrels surfaces are machined flat
(2c)

.

 

[catbed]

my head rocket when i had the oring in too. thats why you tighten the four bolts in the middle first, not the ones on the ends.

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

If the head gasket covers the O ring grouve, I would leave the O ring out. Makes sense that the gasket is an updated version....

 

[Matchless]

If the head gasket covers the O ring grouve, I would leave the O ring out. Makes sense that the gasket is an updated version....

Lynn,
Your reply and also psyguy's is starting to make a lot of sense and I feel that o-ring was left of the 2006 set out puposefully. Especially now that I have found that the MLS gasket has an outer layer of Viton rubber which was not used on the older MLS types. I have sent off a query to Athena themselves and will share their reply if I get any.
Thanks for all your interest and replies.

 

[Suzuki_Don]

Hi Andre, I've kept out of this discussion, but have been following it closely. A couple of observations. I have a Vesrah gasket set for the 550 and it has the larger cutout for the cam tunnel with the accompanying square "O" ring.

Suzuki did produce a model that did not have the cam tunnel "O" ring. this was the GS650, it had a gasket only and no "O" ring. I have only become aware of this because I am doing the 650 top end conversion on my 550. I agree with Lynn that I would leave the "O" ring out. Particularly after looking at the 650 parts diagram. If it seals on the 650 motor then I see no reason why it would not seal on the 1000.

As PSY says there is plenty of metal between the cam tunnel and the cylinder bore. Including the top of the cylinder liner which is at least 3/8" wide.

 

[Matchless]

Don, does the 650 have a channel for the o-ring at all or is it flat metal like the rest around the cylinders?
At this stage I am 100% sure that the oil seals around the end studs are not required as the MLS head gasket with the Viton lining will seal that properly and that is the reason for them not being supplied with this new gasket and the holes not even making provision for it.
I also feel that the Viton layer on the narrow part surrounding the cam chain opening should seal properly, supported by the fact that the o-ring is most likely not provided for exactly that reason and then further supported by the fact that the PO reused the old o-ring gasket under the headgasket as he obviously also did not get one supplied and most likely was not sure on the change.
Hopefully Athena themselves will be able to confirm something here. I have the Athena part number as P400510850951 for the older complete set with 66 pieces and the newer complete set P400510850951/1 with 61 pieces. If you subtrack 4 endstud seals and the rectangular o-ring, then you land up with 61.
If Athena can just officially confirm this as their set is real value for money at the price compared to some others.