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High Accuracy Degree Wheel

Damn

Damn

Is it just me, or do some people have too short a fuse?
 
rapidray said:
I have a High School diploma & build faster engines than either one of you!:D:eek::oops: Ray!
Click to expand...

Now THAT'S funny.

I've got a BS in Computer Science, I work in the EE dept. at OSU and I'm so totally confused about how to degree cams it's ridiculous but posplayr your explanations were excellent. Thank you.

And btw, I'm just happy when my bike runs. :lol:
 
One question, does it really matter performance wise? Can't see 1/10 of a degree making any difference at all in the big scheme of things. That's like one zillisecond of difference in when the valves actually open and close. Does it get another horsepower? Another tenth of a horsepower? Does it alter the power band any amount that can be measured?

Just seems like overkill unless you are dyno testing the engine every tenth of a degree on both cams, with the carburetor already dialed in and the ignition set perfectly. Even then I can't imagine it would matter much.

Just an honest question from someone who's never done it, but read all about it and getting ready to jump into it on my 550/673. As soon as I find a degree wheel. Was going to print one up but if a tenth of a degree matters I can see that wouldn't be very good.
 
tkent02 said:
One question, does it really matter performance wise? Can't see 1/10 of a degree making any difference at all in the big scheme of things. That's like one zillisecond of difference in when the valves actually open and close. Does it get another horsepower? Another tenth of a horsepower? Does it alter the power band any amount that can be measured?

Just seems like overkill unless you are dyno testing the engine every tenth of a degree on both cams, with the carburetor already dialed in and the ignition set perfectly. Even then I can't imagine it would matter much.

Just an honest question from someone who's never done it, but read all about it and getting ready to jump into it on my 550/673. As soon as I find a degree wheel. Was going to print one up but if a tenth of a degree matters I can see that wouldn't be very good.
Click to expand...

I think I have already described "why" starting at the top of the thread. It has less to do with getting absolute best hp v.s. how fast you can get the cam alignment numbers to converge.

It should be clear that the racers use big wheels(e.g. 18" wheels) and will popoo you for using a dinky 8" wheel. But then when you show with precision sighting the 8" wheel is more accurate that an bent wire on the 18" wheel they poopo that as well as if it doesn't matter. So popoo no matter what.

When you are degreeing your cams using a piece of bent wire and a 8" wheel and you can't figure out why you are going around in circles, you might try my suggestion and dial it in in two passes instead of 5-7.
 
Last edited:
I read all that. Just can't really see how it matters. Apparently Suzuki slaps them together with really sloppy tolerances and they mostly run half assed OK, I have seen quite a few which were off one tooth that ran, I wouldn't say OK but the POs didn't notice anything wrong. Again, not an expert at this, just can't se how .1 degrees can have any effect at all.
 
[TABLE="width: 488"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #999999, colspan: 2"][SIZE=+1]Varying Lobe Separation Angle[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Tighten[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Widen[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Moves Torque to Lower RPM[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Raise Torque to Higher RPM[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increases Maximum Torque[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Reduces Maximum Torque[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Narrow Powerband[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Broadens Power Band[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Reduce Maximum Cylinder Pressure[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increase Chance of Engine Knock[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Decrease Chance of Engine Knock[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increase Cranking Compression[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Decrease Cranking Compression[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increase Efective Compression[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Decrease Efective Compression[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Idle Vacuum is Reduced[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Idle Vacuum is Increased[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Idle Quality Suffers[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Idle Quality Improves[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Open Valve-Overlap Increases[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Open Valve-Overlap Decreases[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Closed Valve-Overlap Increases[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Closed Valve-Overlap Decreases[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Natural EGR Efect Increases[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Natural EGR Efect is Reduced[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Decreases Piston-to-Valve Clerance[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increases Piston-to-Valve Clerance[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][TABLE="width: 319"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"][SIZE=+1]Lobe Separation Angle[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Above 114 Deg. = Extremely Wide[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]114-112 Deg. = Wide[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]112-110 Deg. = Moderately Wide[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]110-108 Deg. = Moderate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]108-106 Deg. = Moderately Tight[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]106-104 Deg. = Tight[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Below 104 Deg. = Extremely Tight[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][TABLE="width: 538"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #999999, colspan: 2"][SIZE=+1]Advancing/Retarding Cam Timing[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Advancing[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Retarding[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Begins Intake Event Sooner[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Delays Intake Event Closes Intake[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Open Intake Valve Sooner[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Keeps Intake Valve Open Later[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Builds More Low-End Torque[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Builds More High-End Power[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Decrease Piston-Intake Valve Clerance[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clerance[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increase Piston-Exhaust Valve Clerance[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clerance[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Just thought this might help some understand what moving the lobe centers around does
 
tkent02 said:
I read all that. Just can't really see how it matters. Apparently Suzuki slaps them together with really sloppy tolerances and they mostly run half assed OK, I have seen quite a few which were off one tooth that ran, I wouldn't say OK but the POs didn't notice anything wrong. Again, not an expert at this, just can't se how .1 degrees can have any effect at all.
Click to expand...

That is exactly why when you have two of the same stock bikes one will be quicker than the other even with the same rider
I for one do not like leaving things half assed.
If you do a rebuild and mill your head you change you lobe centers.
 
tkent02 said:
I read all that. Just can't really see how it matters. Apparently Suzuki slaps them together with really sloppy tolerances and they mostly run half assed OK, I have seen quite a few which were off one tooth that ran, I wouldn't say OK but the POs didn't notice anything wrong. Again, not an expert at this, just can't se how .1 degrees can have any effect at all.
Click to expand...

You may be reading but your comprehension level is pretty low. Ask yourself why 18" degree wheels are used by racers? If you don't know the answer, then re read this thread till you get it. It has been posted more than once.
 
Dredging up an almost seven year old thread just to berate a point someone made.

Wow, simply wow.
 
rustybronco said:
Dredging up an almost seven year old thread just to berate a point someone made.

Wow, simply wow.
Click to expand...

Rusty,
The referenced post by Ray reinforces the point of the thread, despite his own denigrating postings in this thread. If the truth is derogatory towards Ray then that is not my fault. There are people interested in cams and degreeing of same which is why I researched this thread.

You might also consider where this thread is posted and the fact that it was started in 2009 is kind of irrelevant to the discussion. It is a sticky for a reason, and complementing the information rather than detracting from it would probably be more in line with forum policies don't you think?
[h=1]Forum: Popular Technical Info[/h]
 
Lets all just argue about it, that will help. And my comprehension is just fine, thank you.
 
stetracer said:
[TABLE="width: 488"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #999999, colspan: 2"][SIZE=+1]Varying Lobe Separation Angle[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Tighten[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Widen[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Moves Torque to Lower RPM[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Raise Torque to Higher RPM[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increases Maximum Torque[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Reduces Maximum Torque[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Narrow Powerband[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Broadens Power Band[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Reduce Maximum Cylinder Pressure[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increase Chance of Engine Knock[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Decrease Chance of Engine Knock[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increase Cranking Compression[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Decrease Cranking Compression[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increase Efective Compression[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Decrease Efective Compression[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Idle Vacuum is Reduced[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Idle Vacuum is Increased[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Idle Quality Suffers[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Idle Quality Improves[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Open Valve-Overlap Increases[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Open Valve-Overlap Decreases[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Closed Valve-Overlap Increases[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Closed Valve-Overlap Decreases[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Natural EGR Efect Increases[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Natural EGR Efect is Reduced[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Decreases Piston-to-Valve Clerance[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increases Piston-to-Valve Clerance[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][TABLE="width: 319"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"][SIZE=+1]Lobe Separation Angle[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Above 114 Deg. = Extremely Wide[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]114-112 Deg. = Wide[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]112-110 Deg. = Moderately Wide[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]110-108 Deg. = Moderate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]108-106 Deg. = Moderately Tight[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]106-104 Deg. = Tight[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 100%"]Below 104 Deg. = Extremely Tight[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[SIZE=+1]
[/SIZE][TABLE="width: 538"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #999999, colspan: 2"][SIZE=+1]Advancing/Retarding Cam Timing[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Advancing[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Retarding[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Begins Intake Event Sooner[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Delays Intake Event Closes Intake[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Open Intake Valve Sooner[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Keeps Intake Valve Open Later[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Builds More Low-End Torque[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Builds More High-End Power[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Decrease Piston-Intake Valve Clerance[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increase Piston-Intake Valve Clerance[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Increase Piston-Exhaust Valve Clerance[/SIZE][/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #cccccc"][SIZE=+1]Decrease Piston-Exhaust Valve Clerance[/SIZE][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Just thought this might help some understand what moving the lobe centers around does
Click to expand...


Very helpful, thanks.
 
The difference is so minuscule that it doesn't really matter in the real world. A coat hanger wire with a point ground on it, or a dulled razor blade. Not a penny's worth of difference between the two, much less pages and pages of debating/arguing about it.

Sheesh!
 
tkent02 said:
Lets all just argue about it, that will help. And my comprehension is just fine, thank you.
Click to expand...


feel free to report back you findings after you have degreed your cams using using an 9" degree wheel with a piece of close hanger.
 
If I said you can degree a set of cams as accurately with an 9" degree wheel using the razor as you can with an 18" wheel using a piece of wire would you believe that?

Of course then the subject leads to why do I need to degree a a cam with 9" or 18" degree wheel at all? To which I say is not the subject. But if you don't care , can't tell or don't know, then you are wasting your time degreeing cams in the first place.

Is that plain enough?
 
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