How dumb is dumb? Points problem!!!!!

[5RON5]

I know this sounds sooooo stupid! I took my plugs out a few times & found #4 very black & sooty. I read that the point gap may be a problem, so, as a pretty damn good points man on a auto, I figured doing a quick look at them, wouldn't be outt'a line! I read the book, quickly, & figured it was pretty much the same thing as a car. Well, it isn't! And I could not get it to fire after making the needed adjustment, I thought. It's a '79 750 w/15k & in fairly good shape. After replacing a new air box, filter, rubbers, fuel lines & all needed hoses, it started w/only a short use of chock, about 4 min, & it started & ran very well on idle. But, the perfectionist I must be, I tried to re-adjust the points. They don't have a high lobe, to adjust the open points, as does an auto. I turned to the F-1&3, & adjusted them from there. Thinking I had found where it was out of adjustment. Because when I turned it to the F-1&4, it looked closed, so I adjusted it to .026. Then went to the F-2&3, & did the same. It wouldn't even fire. So I took out the plugs, & spun it around & left it where I thought was a high spot on the cam, & adjusted again, to .026, then the same thing again on a high spot for 2-3. I got it to fire. So then I undone the outter plate & turned it, like on a car when ya turn the distributor, for timing. I got it to run pretty well then. So I took it out & it doesn't run as fast as it did before I messed w/it. It also kind'a pops a bit. But when I am going through the gears, at break neck speed, all the way to 9k, it seems to run fine. But maybe it's just the speed & noise. I may think it does fine, but really don't think so. I even tried to hook up a 12V tester light, to check B.T.D.C. like it say's, but both sides of the points lit the light up, no matter where I touched it. On either side of the points. I hooked up the clip end to the points where the plate moves for adjustments, & used the prob to touch to the other side of the points, but both sides made the light go on. I have to do it all again tomorrow, but need some help bad! This is embarrassing to me, as I really have been working on auto's for a long time. But this is the first time I have tried to do my bike. I read & re read the books! I have both a "Clymer" & a "Suzuki" manual, & seem not to be able to do it right. If someone can help this fool out, I will listen to any help. Thanks much. Ron...

 

[mark]

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=88522&highlight=points

Check out this thread for exact instructions on how to set your points. Check out earl's post.

Good luck, ask for more help if you need it.

 

[TomK]

When using a lamp to check the opening of points, you need to use one with it's own power source. Sears still sells one. 1.5 volt battery powered. The lamp will be on when you connect the leads but will dim when the points just start to open.

Hope his helps.

Tom

 

[Guy]

Points gap sounds too big. It should be only be 12 to 16 thou or 0.3-0.4mm.

 

[5RON5]

Sorry, I set the points at 14 & the plugs to 26. And Tom, the light tester I have isn't the right one to use? It is more'r less an "ice pick", w/a light in it & a clamp for ground. Won't that work as well as a home made one?
Thanks Mark for the post of how points are set for dummy's! HA! It is a much better, a more understanding description. I'm going out now & try it out. I will try'n hook up my timing light too. Can somebody tell me if doing that, if this is the right way to do it? First I hook it to the #1 plug wire, then ground, then to where? Damn, do I have to hook to both coils at 2 different times? Man, I can't tell ya how much different this is to a auto! I feel as if I haven't learned a thing, all these yrs! Thank you for the help & this question if somebody does answer. Thanks. Ron..

 

[mark]

I'm not sure what kind of timing light you have, but mine puts the pick-up clip on the plug wire, then the clips go to the postive and negative side of the battery.

If you do the static timing according to the instructions, your timing light will just be a way to check things. Good luck.

You don't need a powered light to do the timing because when you do it, your ignition switch will be "on". Any 12v bulb with a couple of leads will work.

 

[5RON5]

Hay ya Mark!! I am in trouble!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know this light will work fine! You've seen them before. They have a ice pick appearance & the handle is clear plastic. It has a 12v light bulb in it, & coming outt'a the handle, is a long phone cord looking alligator clip, that I hook to a good ground. & when I hit a place that has juice in it, it makes a complete circuit & the light goes off, letting you know you have found the 12v's at! Now, after removing the plugs, I spun the cam over till I found the most open point location, & gaped my points to 14. Then did the exact same to the other one, at the highest open place & to 14. Then I spun the cam around to the mark; |F, 1&4 & hooked up the light, & loosened the 3 screws, to move the plate slowly, so the light would go out, but it never went out. Neither side did, after I moved over to the mark;|F 2&3. The light never did go out on either side!! I don't know what to do now!!!!! But I checked the light & it works! I forgot to tell ya. I didn't have to move the points to re-adjust them, after I re checked them. They were right on the mark of 14, so I proceeded to the timing part. There's where I have the problem! Can you or anybody tell me what I am doing wrong? The bike started yesterday & I ran it w/these same3 gaps! What I need to do is get the timing right! But the damn light will not go out! So the points aren't opening when I spin the plate. Can ya help me out????? Ron..

 

[mark]

You have the same tester as I do. When your using it are you touching ONLY the white wire on the left and the black wire on the right? I used the point and actually dug it in to the wire to make sure there was no other contact. Also you're loosening different screws when you time 1-4, and 2-3 right?

 

[5RON5]

Yes Mark, the screws on the right side, for the points, I used to adjust them. they do have there own screws. I just got back from a test ride, & it's missing & popping when I give it all the throttle at 4-5k! I never got the static light to go off when I was trying to get the timing right. And, I could only get it to adjust timing on 1-4, w/the timing light showing the line of 1 & 4; the | mark, straight on it. but couldn't get 2 & 3 to show w/t. light. I don'[t know. I will try again tomorrow, but I don't hold out much optimism w/it. I PM'd ya Mark, w/the same as this post. Any other ideas would sure be useful. I can't recall ever having this much trouble w/points. Except when I learned on my own to do it on a auto. Thanks for all the help though. Ron..

 

[mark]

I'm stumped too, especially since your bike was running well before your attempt at timing it.

Its a little hard to follow what you're doing.

One you set the point gap, you don't touch those single screws again.
You turn the whole plate (three screws) to time 1-4, only the half plate (2 screws) for 2-3.
Condensors hooked up? Ignition on when you time it? Crank turned to the proper place first?

That's all I know. If it doesn't work, repost. There's people here who know a lot more than I do and you'll get there eventually.

 

[TomK]

I'm not sure what kind of timing light you have, but mine puts the pick-up clip on the plug wire, then the clips go to the postive and negative side of the battery.

If you do the static timing according to the instructions, your timing light will just be a way to check things. Good luck.

You don't need a powered light to do the timing because when you do it, your ignition switch will be "on". Any 12v bulb with a couple of leads will work.

Think about it if you use the 12 volts supplied from the bike. All of the components for the points are secured to one backing plate, all of them are connected together. Just because you attach one side of your trouble shooting lamp to each side does not seperate them, the circuit is still active because the plates from the points are mounted on the same backing plate.

The only method I have used to set the static timing on a bike with points is with a self powered 1.5 volt lamp. And again it will not go out but just dim when the points start to open. Try it, it works.

Tom

 

[mark]

If that works, I don't know. I'm no expert on electrics. Having done it the other way with a simple 12v bulb many times I do know that works as well.

 

[jimg]

If that works, I don't know. I'm no expert on electrics. Having done it the other way with a simple 12v bulb many times I do know that works as well.

It's been awhile since I've worked on points and I don't have a schematic so someone help me out if I am wrong.

I thought the points were on the ground side of the coil. This means the battery is hooked to the hot side of the coil and the points are inserted in the ground side. Therefore electricity flows through the coil (and through the points to ground) when the points are closed and does not flow when the points open.

This means the wire coming from the ground side of the coil (to the movable portion of the points) is at ground potential when the points are closed and has +12 volts potential when the points are open.

This should mean that your light would be out (or barely on) when the points are closed and the light should be completely on when the points are open.

Am I missing something here?

 

[earlfor]

One lead of the continuity light is connected to ground. The other lead is connected to the isolated + wire to the pointset you want to check. The only electrical pathway to ground is through the points. If the points are open, the light cannot come on. If it does, the only possibility is you have assembled the isolator and its washers for the positive wire connection to the points incorrectly and the connection is NOT isolated.

Earl

Think about it if you use the 12 volts supplied from the bike. All of the components for the points are secured to one backing plate, all of them are connected together. Just because you attach one side of your trouble shooting lamp to each side does not seperate them, the circuit is still active because the plates from the points are mounted on the same backing plate.

The only method I have used to set the static timing on a bike with points is with a self powered 1.5 volt lamp. And again it will not go out but just dim when the points start to open. Try it, it works.

Tom

 

[TomK]

One lead of the continuity light is connected to ground. The other lead is connected to the isolated + wire to the pointset you want to check. The only electrical pathway to ground is through the points. If the points are open, the light cannot come on. If it does, the only possibility is you have assembled the isolator and its washers for the positive wire connection to the points incorrectly and the connection is NOT isolated.

Earl

Think again. both sides of the point plates are mounted to the same backing plate. Using the bikes 12 volts will not cause your probe type trouble lamp to go out or even dim enough for you to notice. Using a 1.5 volt self powered lamp has so little juice, you are able see what you cannot with the bikes 12 volt supply. Put it to the test and see.

Tom

 

[bexabarr]

I'm about to do my timming, and (with the ignition in the "on" position, because otherwise it doesn't work) when the points are open on my continuity light, the light is on, and when the points are closed the light is off. I don't know why. On a side note, when I give the 12v an outside source of electricty (9V battery) then and only then it works the way earl says it should

With the points closed, the light should be on.
With your fingernail, open/pull apart the point. When the points are open, the light should go off. If it does not, your wiring connection to the points is not isolated as it should be. If the points being open results in the light going off

?????

 

[5RON5]

Tom, this sounds like mine does. The light doesn't go out no matter what I do. But using the timing light strobe light, I can see that the | F1& 2 are where they are suppose to be. Can't see the other side good enough to tell if it's on or not. But I see in the book, I am suppose to run the engine at 2500k next, & look at "F- 1&4 | mark, to see if it's right. But something is still wrong from when I test rode it yesterday. It is not right & I can't get the static light to go off when the points just open. So, I can't be for sure what's going on. I am going to try it all over again for the 100th time. Maybe somehow, I will get lucky! I just don't know what else to do. As I said, the bike ran very well before I lent my dumb ass hand to it, & thought what I read in the book about being sure before I did the test w/new plugs. To keep it from idling so much & riding it 50-60 MPH & stopping & checking the new plugs, to see how they look. My #4 plug is showing black & sooty. So I wanted to re-check the gap in the points before I did that test. Now I will be lucky to even ride the damn thing. Any other help or something will be checked & re-done if that's what anybody thinks I should do. Thanks. Ron..

 

[earlfor]

You're correct. Its been some years since I've had a bike with points ignition.
With the ignition switched on, the light will be on with the points open and off when they close, grounding the circuit. My test bulb was a spare turn signal bulb which is, I believe 23w. It did go out when the contacts were closed.

If using a self powered test light and the ignition off, it would be opposite and the light would be off/points open, and on points/closed.

Earl

Think again. both sides of the point plates are mounted to the same backing plate. Using the bikes 12 volts will not cause your probe type trouble lamp to go out or even dim enough for you to notice. Using a 1.5 volt self powered lamp has so little juice, you are able see what you cannot with the bikes 12 volt supply. Put it to the test and see.

Tom

 

[5RON5]

Then why isn't mine going off when the points open? I am using a pointer w/a bulb & wire coming out the end for ground. When it touches something that is hot-12v, it goes on. So it should go on off when the pointer hits a current of 12v, shouldn't it? Mine is not opening, I don't think then???? So maybe I have a wrong adjustment on the points, which brings me right back where I started! But when I turn the cam around to the widest opening & do a gap test to 14, it's right on! Same on the other side. SO I can not, for the life of me, figure out why I am having this problem. It misses, won't hardly idle, & pops at around 4-5K! Some one please help,,!! Ron....

 

[TomK]

Sounds like it is time for an old school method.

Try this for setting the static timing. Get a cigarette paper, hardly any smokes anymore I know but they still sell just papers at many markets and stores ,and place one paper between the points. Rotate the crank to the "F" position and adjust the points so you can just remove the paper without tearing it all to pieces. Do this for both sets of points. Then rotate the crank and set the gap at the "T" position. Recheck again at the "F" positions using the cigarette paper. You should be alll set and ready to go until you can find someone with a timing light to fine tune the timing This will get you very close.

Tom