I am an idiot

[skidded]

Everyone already knows this, but today was worse than usual.

So this morning I went out and climbed on the bike to warm it up (it was 9?). Lights came on and everything, but it just wouldn't turn over. This has happened before (9? is colder than usual here), but today I was really late and instead of taking off the battery and charging it properly, I asked my neighbor for a jump.

I just met the guy, but he was happy to help. He pulls up and I attach the cables. Red/red, black/frame. He fires up his engine and I try mine. Immediately sparks come a-flyin'.

Crap. What just happened?

The guy then tells me that for some reason his negative terminal is marked with red and the positive is unmarked--it looks like I hooked up the cables backwards.

WTF?!? You couldn't have mentioned this to me before?!?

Anyway, I now get nothing when I try to turn my bike on. No lights, no motorcar...

My question is, how much damage did I just do and where should I start looking for problems? My initial inclination is to remove the battery, check the water levels and charge it properly in the house. Then I was going to check the fuses to see if I blew any. Beyond that, though, I don't know where to begin. Electrical is not my thing. Mechanical really isn't either, but I've been doing OK with my Clymer guide when I've had to.

Any suggestions you have would be very much appreciated. Ridicule and reproach will be accepted as I totally deserve it.

Thanks,
~Scott

 

[emjay]

Most of your electrics should be ok. Start by checking your fuses.

 

[Nicholaschase29]

Did the sparks fly when the cables were connected, and only after he started his engine? or just when you touched them to the battery terminals? or was his car on and the battery cables connected and when you turned ur bike on and hit the starter?

 

[argonsagas]

Let's see....that is DC current, so the starter motor could have rotated in reverse direction, and started the engine in a like manner, giving you five reverse gears to choose from!


You could have had the most backward ride in town!!



Seriously, I would just check the fuses and try again. Probably, there is no damage at all, but, once it is running, check the charging circuit, as that is likely the only thing that could have been damaged.

 

[skidded]

Did the sparks fly when the cables were connected, and only after he started his engine? or just when you touched them to the battery terminals? or was his car on and the battery cables connected and when you turned ur bike on and hit the starter?

Bike was off. Car was off. I connected to the bike correctly and reversed them on the car. I don't remember exactly, but I think I turned the bike's power on before he started up his car. As soon as he started his car, though....pop! That's when the sparks flew.

I didn't have time to check the fuse, but that'll definitely be the first thing I do. There's only the one main fuse (thanks for the picture from alphasports.com, Tom) and I'm pretty sure I have some spares still attached.

Thanks,
~S

Oh, and Argonsagas.....I believe it would be six reverse gears (it's a '77 GS550). Yahoo!

 

[Tervo]

Let's see....that is DC current, so the starter motor could have rotated in reverse direction, and started the engine in a like manner, giving you five reverse gears to choose from!

No way to start a four-stroke bacwards. If you think what is happening with the valves and cams. It would be sucking pure air from exhaust, compressing, trying to ignite and blowing it out throught carburettors.:-D Backwards starting is possible only with two-strokes.

But, speaking seriously, if the fuse blowed fast enough, it is possible that only the regulator got destroyed. Otherwise, if your bike is equipped with electronic ignition, it got probably shot too.

Here in Finland, every winter, we look people jumpstarting there cars, and we call it as "black box burning party" with these new cars, full of electronics. Because even if your do it correctly, there will be some sparkles when you connect those terminals, and the modern electronics usually don't stand it.

 

[Tarbash 27]

I would say trying to jump it was not a good idea. The bike is probably not dead, just that its so cold, everything becomes stiff. Your best bet would of been trying to kickstart it instead. I would think that you just have some fuse problems.

 

[MissFabulous]

Since it hasn't been mentioned - I have to ask... I've been told by several people to only jump a bike battery from an auto that is not running. Any thoughts on this?

 

[paco13]

I wouldn't jump a bike with anything but a bike, or charge with any thing but a bike charger or one with a realy low amp charge rate. Unless its an emergency with no other options, and then I would not start the car or unplug the reg/rec if I could first.
Every spring I have people call me with this story;

They're bike isn't charging/starting. It ran fine when they parked it last fall. When they tried to start it the battery was to weak, but would start with a jump/charge. So They put a new batt. in and still won't charge or worse.


So I ask them if they checked/cleaned all there wires and cons. and how they got it started first time they tried.

They answere: Jumped it with my car, or used a car charger on high/boost to get it to crank fast.

And then we find the main poss other fuses blown..... Lucky
Regulator/rectifier Blown ..... Not so lucky
Wire harness melted in all different little hidden places.....Totally Sucks!

Probably just coincidence though.

 

[nabrams]

NEVER jump a bike from a running car.
When the car is running, its charging system could be putting out 20 volts or more. This will burn your fuse(s).
If you reversed polarity while jumping (I mistakenly did that years ago) you almost certainly blew the main fuse and possibly others.

 

[Hap Call]

NEVER jump a bike from a running car.
When the car is running, its charging system could be putting out 20 volts or more. This will burn your fuse(s).
If you reversed polarity while jumping (I mistakenly did that years ago) you almost certainly blew the main fuse and possibly others.

Higher voltage will not burn fuses; in fact it will reduce current and lower the chances of a fuse burn.

Honestly, I can't think of any reason why you should not jump a motorcycle off of a running car. If it were to damage anything, it would be the charging system of the car. All the motorcycle electrical system sees is 12 to 15 volts coming from the car's charging system. Even if it did see 20 volts, the insulation system on the wires and components could easily handle it.

But hey, I don't know much about electrical stuff.

Hap

 

[Kris V]

I have jumped many bikes with a car running or not and never had a problem. I have even charged a ladys car battery that was stranded with a bike and did not have a problem. Just don`t let the car start up while you are hooked up due to the fact that the car will draw to much amperage on start (40-60 amps) and will overheat the wiring.

 

[nabrams]

Higher voltage will not burn fuses; in fact it will reduce current and lower the chances of a fuse burn.

Honestly, I can't think of any reason why you should not jump a motorcycle off of a running car. If it were to damage anything, it would be the charging system of the car. All the motorcycle electrical system sees is 12 to 15 volts coming from the car's charging system. Even if it did see 20 volts, the insulation system on the wires and components could easily handle it.

But hey, I don't know much about electrical stuff.

Hap

Hap,

I believe you're incorrect.

Here's the equation:
Voltage = current x resistance

The resistance (the fuse) stays the same, so an increase in voltage will result in increased current, burning the fuse. That's why fuses are rated in amperage (a unit of current), because they can handle up until that amperage, not higher.
That's why electrocution with high voltage can kill someone. The person is a resistor. The high voltage results in high current, frying the person.

An easy way to test this idea out is to hook up three 12 volt batteries in series (not in parallel), thus tripling the voltage. Your bike's fuse will certainly burn at this voltage.

 

[Tervo]

Hap,

I believe you're incorrect.

Here's the equation:
Voltage = current x resistance

The resistance (the fuse) stays the same, so an increase in voltage will result in increased current, burning the fuse. That's why fuses are rated in amperage (a unit of current), because they can handle up until that amperage, not higher.
That's why electrocution with high voltage can kill someone. The person is a resistor. The high voltage results in high current, frying the person.

An easy way to test this idea out is to hook up three 12 volt batteries in series (not in parallel), thus tripling the voltage. Your bike's fuse will certainly burn at this voltage.

You don't need three batteries, I've seen it happen with a 24V battery of a truck, jump starting a car. The car was offered to me, very low priced:-D
Another reason to avoid jump starting, is those sparks you get connecting the cables. First is, that batteries develope hydrogen, which explodes easily from those sparks (I've seen it happen). And those sparks are like litlle lightnings, high voltage, low amperage. And it is the voltage that blows your transistorized equipment, including the regulator.

 

[bonanzadave]

Wow ! We get it. Dont jump start a bike. I have, would and will. Dont seem to be a problem. Just hook it up correctly. Now ya need to talk that neighbor into giving ya a push. Key on, Shift to 2nd, Clutch in, speed up, drop the clutch and pray. Works for me :-D

 

[Hap Call]

Hap,

I believe you're incorrect.

Here's the equation:
Voltage = current x resistance

The resistance (the fuse) stays the same, so an increase in voltage will result in increased current, burning the fuse. That's why fuses are rated in amperage (a unit of current), because they can handle up until that amperage, not higher.
That's why electrocution with high voltage can kill someone. The person is a resistor. The high voltage results in high current, frying the person.

An easy way to test this idea out is to hook up three 12 volt batteries in series (not in parallel), thus tripling the voltage. Your bike's fuse will certainly burn at this voltage.

Actually the correct formula to use is:
Power = Voltage x current

If your starter motor pulls a 100 watts and you use 12 volts to turn it then you use 8.33 amps to turn it. If you have 20 volts, you use 5 amps to turn it. This is theory. Actually, it will turn faster but due to windings on the rotor (making it an inductive-resistive circuit) it will not pull as many amps as if it were at 12 volts.

What you say is true for a strickly resistive type circuit (i.e. your lighting circuits) so you are also correct but normal voltage on a motorcycle system can be as high as 14.8 to 15 volts and the fuses are rated at to operated at 200% over current (and that is a slow burn calculation). Even at 20 volts you should be okay. You will, however, burn out filiments in the lights due to excessive heat produced from the formula you mentioned earlier if you keep the voltage too high for an extended period of time.

Hap

 

[nabrams]

Actually the correct formula to use is:
Power = Voltage x current

If your starter motor pulls a 100 watts and you use 12 volts to turn it then you use 8.33 amps to turn it. If you have 20 volts, you use 5 amps to turn it. This is theory. Actually, it will turn faster but due to windings on the rotor (making it an inductive-resistive circuit) it will not pull as many amps as if it were at 12 volts.

What you say is true for a strickly resistive type circuit (i.e. your lighting circuits) so you are also correct but normal voltage on a motorcycle system can be as high as 14.8 to 15 volts and the fuses are rated at to operated at 200% over current (and that is a slow burn calculation). Even at 20 volts you should be okay. You will, however, burn out filiments in the lights due to excessive heat produced from the formula you mentioned earlier if you keep the voltage too high for an extended period of time.

Hap

Well, we're both in agreement on the fact that too much voltage will burn the main fuse, we just disagree on how much. An older, stressed fuse will have a lower tolerance and may burn more easily.

By the way, for your starter motor example: I think you're assuming that the wattage is a constant - it is not. The wattage rating for the motor is, once again, a "recommended maximum". If you apply more input voltage (resulting in more input current) then the motor will turn faster (more "power/wattage" - a Watt is a unit of "work per time"). The resultant wattage "stress" on the windings in the motor can burn the motor out. That's why there's a fuse in many household fans and such - to protect from over-voltage that will burn the motor out.

Definition of a Watt:
the SI unit of power. Power is the rate at which work is done, or (equivalently) the rate at which energy is expended. One watt is equal to a power rate of one joule of work per second of time. This unit is used both in mechanics and in electricity, so it links the mechanical and electrical units to one another. In mechanical terms, one watt equals about 0.001 341 02 horsepower (hp) or 0.737 562 foot-pound per second (lbf/s). In electrical terms, one watt is the power produced by a current of one ampere flowing through an electric potential of one volt. The name of the unit honors James Watt (1736-1819), the British engineer who built the first practical steam engines.

 

[Tervo]

Definition of a Watt:

Definition of an electric device: it works as long as you keep the smoke in, if you let the smoke out, it is not working anymore.:-D The fastest way of letting the smoke out is giving it too many volts.

 

[nabrams]

Definition of an electric device: it works as long as you keep the smoke in, if you let the smoke out, it is not working anymore.:-D The fastest way of letting the smoke out is giving it too many volts.

You said it a lot better than I did!!!!

 

[Hap Call]

Well, we're both in agreement on the fact that too much voltage will burn the main fuse, we just disagree on how much. An older, stressed fuse will have a lower tolerance and may burn more easily.

By the way, for your starter motor example: I think you're assuming that the wattage is a constant - it is not. The wattage rating for the motor is, once again, a "recommended maximum". If you apply more input voltage (resulting in more input current) then the motor will turn faster (more "power/wattage" - a Watt is a unit of "work per time"). The resultant wattage "stress" on the windings in the motor can burn the motor out. That's why there's a fuse in many household fans and such - to protect from over-voltage that will burn the motor out.

Definition of a Watt:
the SI unit of power. Power is the rate at which work is done, or (equivalently) the rate at which energy is expended. One watt is equal to a power rate of one joule of work per second of time. This unit is used both in mechanics and in electricity, so it links the mechanical and electrical units to one another. In mechanical terms, one watt equals about 0.001 341 02 horsepower (hp) or 0.737 562 foot-pound per second (lbf/s). In electrical terms, one watt is the power produced by a current of one ampere flowing through an electric potential of one volt. The name of the unit honors James Watt (1736-1819), the British engineer who built the first practical steam engines.

Yes, that is the definition of a watt. But voltage will not and has never burned open a fuse. Voltage does not produce heat. Only heat will burn open a fuse and heat is produced by current. I've never heard of the term wattage "stress". It is not the speed of a motor that causes it to "burn up" it is the load and/or lack of cooling of the motor that causes it. In house hold appliances, the thermal overloads located in the small motor windings or circuits are there to protect from over heating, not over-voltage.

In a permanent magnet DC motor the speed of the motor is determined by the voltage but the torque is determined by the current. Again, it is current that determines if a fuse blows or not. There are other factors such as back EMF and armature flux that determine speed and reaction to load. Again, this is a RLC circuit, not a strictly resistive circuit. You are thinking only in terms of resistance.

But then again, I don't know much about electricity

Hap