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I am an idiot

  • Thread starter Thread starter skidded
  • Start date Start date
Hap Call said:
Yes, that is the definition of a watt. But voltage will not and has never burned open a fuse. Voltage does not produce heat. Only heat will burn open a fuse and heat is produced by current. I've never heard of the term wattage "stress". It is not the speed of a motor that causes it to "burn up" it is the load and/or lack of cooling of the motor that causes it. In house hold appliances, the thermal overloads located in the small motor windings or circuits are there to protect from over heating, not over-voltage.

In a permanent magnet DC motor the speed of the motor is determined by the voltage but the torque is determined by the current. Again, it is current that determines if a fuse blows or not. There are other factors such as back EMF and armature flux that determine speed and reaction to load. Again, this is a RLC circuit, not a strictly resistive circuit. You are thinking only in terms of resistance.

But then again, I don't know much about electricity

Hap
Click to expand...

Yes, of course, voltage doesn't burn anything - it's just potential. And of course current is what makes circuits heat up. Voltage defines how much current WILL flow for a given resistance WHEN you apply that voltage, regardless of the nature of the circuit. And the more voltage, the more current. So the voltage is the catalyst for the current.
The windings in a motor are the circuit through which the current flows. More current will make them hotter (unless they're made out of perfectly super-conductive material).
No matter what other factors are involved in a circuit (RLC, EMF or any other acronym) it's still a circuit and will heat up and burn when more current is flowing through it than it can handle - I think we both agree on that, right?

An electric motor's electro-motive-force (EMF) is a by-product of the magnetic field generated by the current flowing through the windings. That interacts with the permanent magnet and causes the motor to turn. The actual resultant speed that the motor turns at (RPM) is dependent on many other factors besides electrical input (friction, the load its turning). It may not turn at all if there's too much friction and/or load. That motor can be expending tons of energy even though its at a speed of zero. At a speed of zero, the current input will be converted to heat energy and that motor will radiate a lot of heat!
 
Holy Crap, Now Im really con-fused (thats a pun). I always looked at it as the killer of electrics is heat. Heat is friction. If your wires are too small (High resistance) theres friction for current flow and a build up of heat. Thats why clean grounds and connectors are so important. If there dirty its a point of high resistance (friction) and heat will build and wires & insulation starts to melt. Fuses were designed as a calibrated point of friction to protect wires. When current flow exceeds the point of calabration of the fuse (in amps). The fuse burns opens, current flow stops and the wire has been protected.
As far as jumping a bike with a car I still see no problem with it electrically. 12vdc to 12vdc. The problem Ive had are that automotive jumpper cables are too big to get to the tight spots on a bike. And like someone else said. shorting or crossing polarity can cause problems with sensitive solid state devices.
 
BonanzaDave,

The problem with jump-starting a bike with a car that is running (as I see it, at least) is not the voltage, but the current (amperage). The regulator on your bike is rated to handle a nominal amount of current that is likely to be produced by your bike's charging system. I can not find charging specs for either my 650 or my 850, but I suspect that the system is rated for no more than 20-25 amps. When you connect the cables to the car, it is possible that the voltage regulator on the car is set just a bit higher than the one on your bike. If this is the case, your bike is now going to try to regulate the car's alternator output. Many of today's cars have alternators with a LARGE capacity. The alternator in my Toyota van is rated at 90 amps. There is no way the bike's regulator will be able to handle that much current.

For all those who say they have had no problem, consider yourselves lucky. Evidently the car's regulator was set lower than your bike's.

The safe way to jump start your bike is with the car's engine off. There is no way that will harm anything on your bike, it is the same voltage. There are some who will claim that the larger battery will push too many amps through the cables. Hogwash. Amps are pulled by the starter, not pushed by the battery. Same starter, same amps, but you can crank longer with a bigger battery.

Because of the regulator issue, I would not charge a bike battery in the bike by connecting jumper cables, but I have reversed the situation and used my bike to charge up a car's battery enough for them to start it. Disconnect the cables first, to protect the bike's battery and wiring. The car' starter will draw a LOT more than the bike's wiring was designed to handle.


.
 
Amps kill fuses, not volts. Amps burn wires, blow fuses, and overheat motors.
 
nabrams said:
Yes, of course, voltage doesn't burn anything - it's just potential. And of course current is what makes circuits heat up. Voltage defines how much current WILL flow for a given resistance WHEN you apply that voltage, regardless of the nature of the circuit. And the more voltage, the more current. So the voltage is the catalyst for the current.
The windings in a motor are the circuit through which the current flows. More current will make them hotter (unless they're made out of perfectly super-conductive material).
No matter what other factors are involved in a circuit (RLC, EMF or any other acronym) it's still a circuit and will heat up and burn when more current is flowing through it than it can handle - I think we both agree on that, right?

An electric motor's electro-motive-force (EMF) is a by-product of the magnetic field generated by the current flowing through the windings. That interacts with the permanent magnet and causes the motor to turn. The actual resultant speed that the motor turns at (RPM) is dependent on many other factors besides electrical input (friction, the load its turning). It may not turn at all if there's too much friction and/or load. That motor can be expending tons of energy even though its at a speed of zero. At a speed of zero, the current input will be converted to heat energy and that motor will radiate a lot of heat!
Click to expand...

Alright, you know a lot more about electricity than me. I'll return my EE degree to the university and tell Reliance Electric I'm sorry I worked on motor design for them.

Hap
 
Steve said:
BonanzaDave,
For all those who say they have had no problem, consider yourselves lucky. Evidently the car's regulator was set lower than your bike's.
Click to expand...
Steve, Ill go with ya on the running car. It just seems safer. But to me the cars alternator is working to keep its battery charged. When you hook up the dead bike battery the cars alternator will work to charge both batteries. Once charged, the cars alternator goes off line. When you hit the bikes starter button there is a big draw on the battery but that shouldnt effect the bikes R/R. Should be no different than a big battery charger.

Oh ya, Hap....If you put batteries in a flashlight backwards does it suck up light ?
 
nabrams said:
Yes, of course, voltage doesn't burn anything - it's just potential. And of course current is what makes circuits heat up. Voltage defines how much current WILL flow for a given resistance WHEN you apply that voltage, regardless of the nature of the circuit. And the more voltage, the more current. So the voltage is the catalyst for the current.
The windings in a motor are the circuit through which the current flows. More current will make them hotter (unless they're made out of perfectly super-conductive material).
No matter what other factors are involved in a circuit (RLC, EMF or any other acronym) it's still a circuit and will heat up and burn when more current is flowing through it than it can handle - I think we both agree on that, right?

An electric motor's electro-motive-force (EMF) is a by-product of the magnetic field generated by the current flowing through the windings. That interacts with the permanent magnet and causes the motor to turn. The actual resultant speed that the motor turns at (RPM) is dependent on many other factors besides electrical input (friction, the load its turning). It may not turn at all if there's too much friction and/or load. That motor can be expending tons of energy even though its at a speed of zero. At a speed of zero, the current input will be converted to heat energy and that motor will radiate a lot of heat!
Click to expand...

Are you talking AC or DC? What about VFD? That will slow and speed up a motor. Sorry.... way off topic.
 
renobruce said:
What about VFD? Sorry.... way off topic.
Click to expand...

Bruce, you're just a trouble maker. You threw that VFD stuff in on purpose, dintcha? 8-[

Seriously, back to the top. I wouldn't charge that battery in the house. It will off-gas hydrogen while charging. Very explosive. If you think you saw sparks before, stand back! Hope I'm not too late. I haven't heard of any houses blowing up in the Cambridge area in the last two days.

After you get your electrical woe's fixed, buy a battery tender. To keep a slow charge on the battery during the cold months.
 
Tom MLC said:
...I wouldn't charge that battery in the house. It will off-gas hydrogen while charging. Very explosive. If you think you saw sparks before, stand back! Hope I'm not too late. I haven't heard of any houses blowing up in the Cambridge area in the last two days.

After you get your electrical woe's fixed, buy a battery tender. To keep a slow charge on the battery during the cold months.
Click to expand...

You guys are awesome. I was lost after Paco's reply on page one!

When I mentioned recharging the battery, I meant on the trickle charger. I have a battery tender and have that in the house....nothing more industrial than that.

I apolgize for not updating earlier. That night I went home and removed the battery. Then I checked the main fuse and it was definitely blown. I fortunately have spares and was able to replace it, but I wanted to be sure the battery was fully-charged before further starting attempts. Then yesterday the Northeast was hit by a very disappointing snow/sleet storm and I haven't been able to work on it again. Tonight I *should* be able to try it again....if just to make sure I can get it started.

If it DOES start (fingers crossed), I know I'm not necessarily out of the woods yet. What else should I be looking for? Do I need special equipment/tools or will it be readily apparant that something else is wrong?
 
Please don't insult the man.....

Please don't insult the man.....

nabrams said:
The name of the unit honors James Watt (1736-1819), the British engineer who built the first practical steam engines.
Click to expand...


James Watt was a Scot.
 
Dink said:
Which is part of Britain

Dink
Click to expand...

Yes, it's part of the British Isles. The countries of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland make up the United Kingdom. Scotland, Wales, and England are all on the Isle of Great Britian. Northern Ireland is on the Island of Ireland.

Hap
 
Reminds me of the old joke:

What happens when you put your battery in your car backward?

Your horn sucks, your lights cast shadows and your radio listens.
 
The snow/ice finally cleared up enough for me to put the battery back in and test it out. I'd already replaced the main fuse. So far so good...it fired right up yesterday. I let it run for about 10-15 minutes and all seemed to be OK.

Rode to work today and everything still seems OK. I suppose I'll be able to tell if there was any permanent damage to the charging system by the time I leave work tonight, but I'm encouraged so far.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback and the geography lessons....they're very much appreciated!

~S
 
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