I done goofed

[poorgradstudent]

So I''d been chasing a low-idle rattle for awhile now in addition to my usual misadventures in carb jetting, and it looks like my ****ty maintenance has finally caught up to me.

I was leaving the bar Friday afternoon when it happened. It was about 80F outside beautiful, and the bike had been running great before I stopped in for lunch. As I was leaving, I went to try the ignition and the bike wouldn't fire.

Thinking I had flooded the damn thing, I pulled the airbox covers and waited a few minutes in an attempt to let everything air out. The bike smelled fuel rich, strong gas odor.

I put the airbox covers back on and went to the try the ignition again and holy ****, the bike shot straight up to 7000+RPMS!!!! I immediately hit the kill switch and turned it off.

I waited a few seconds, then tried it again. It turned over and then I heard this God-aweful sound (chain dragging?) before it cut out again.

I waited and then tried again, but nothing except for this time it sounded like something electrical was popping!

Then after the popping, the bike went completely dead. Stone. Cold. Dead. No power at all. Nothing.

I managed to hoof it home, borrow a trailer and get the bike back home. I wrenched on it some Friday evening and today and noticed the following:

- Fuses are clean! None blown, so something else has shorted out or failed.

- Battery terminals are black so I'm guessing the battery is fried.

- Connecting my car battery to the motorcycle terminals does nothing. All power is down.

- I removed the side cover and used a wrench to turn the engine over a few times manually. The crankshaft turns fine but I can't hear or feel anything moving along the cam shaft. I'm assuming the cam chain broke.


Has anyone ever experienced this kind of failure before? And, how bad is it? Should I focus on restoring power first? Or rebuilding the engine and replacing the timing chain?

Either way ... =/

 

[terrylee]

Can't answer all the questions, but either take the valve cover off and take a look at the chain and cams. Or take the plugs out, shine a light into plug holes and turn engine manually, you should be able to see if the valves are moving up and down, and the tops of the pistons. Others with far more expertise than me should be along soon to help. One thought I have is it could have been the stator breaking you heard. Could have broke the starter clutch also. Might explain some of the problems. terrylee

 

[poorgradstudent]

I tried pulling the plugs and shining the light in but I'm not able to see any valve movement. I'll probably move the valve cover tomorrow if I get a chance.

Broken clutch doesn't sound fun. Would that be the starter motor that's broken?

 

[blowerbike]

what is the mystery model of this bike?

 

[terrylee]

Starter clutch is different than the starter, it's behind the stator inside the left side of engine. If you don't have a manual for your bike (whatever it is) go to Basscliff's site and there should be one on there you can download for free. terrylee

 

[tkent02]

I'd rather have a broken starter clutch than a broken cam chain. It takes out a lot of stuff when it fails. Like eight valves. Or maybe sixteen, depending on how many you have.

 

[poorgradstudent]

The bike is a 1980 1000G, and I'm fairly confident the cam chain is broken.

Am I looking at a complete rebuild?

 

[Dogma]

It sounds like multiple overlapping problems. Verify the cam chain is broken rather than making decisions based on the assumption. It's too easy to check before throwing money at it. See with your eyeballs that the cams are disconnected from the crank. If you've never had the cam cover off, you should do it, both to verify that cam chain is still there and to check the valve clearances that are probably long overdue for adjusting.

Next up is figuring out how you "flooded" carbs with no accelerator pumps. Most likely, the petcock and float needles failed, allowing fuel to overfill the carbs, maybe draining into a cylinder, or through a cylinder into the crankcase.

Last is the electrical shutdown. Even if no fuses appear to be blown, check them with a meter. Glass fuses can appear to be fine but still be blown. Also, the fuse block itself may be corroded or broken internally. If the main fuse holder is broken internally, it'll be hard to get any electrical activity from the bike. It's not difficult to get get it open to check.

How bad is all this? Just bad enough that you need to finally dig into the bike and catch up all the maintenance. Make sure the fuel system is right. Make sure the electrical system is right. Make sure the mechanical maintenance is caught up. Then you can ride with confidence instead of on borrowed time.

Leaving the bar on Friday afternoon? You work there?

 

[Guest]

Hmm
Possible hydro lock from fuel in the motor, killed the starter solenoid/starter which created a direct short and possible engine damage from trying to turn over a locked motor.
That would me my uneducated guess.

 

[poorgradstudent]

Hmm
Possible hydro lock from fuel in the motor, killed the starter solenoid/starter which created a direct short and possible engine damage from trying to turn over a locked motor.
That would me my uneducated guess.

How does the motor actually physically lock up? Some sort of seizing happened but I have a hard time visualizing it.

Leaving the bar on Friday afternoon? You work there?

Ha, I'm a PhD student, so I'm ALWAYS on the clock. If I don't take the opportunities to sneak out, ride a bit, and have a beer and burger, I'll lose my damn mind long before I finish any research.

 

[Guest]

http://www.ehow.com/info_12177155_gets-damaged-engine-hydrolock.html

 

[poorgradstudent]

Thanks for the link!

 

[Maddevill]

A hydro lock is caused when fluid,( gas, water) fills a cylinder. The piston can't compress it so the motor "locks" up. If you're lucky that's as far as it goes. if you're unlucky it can bend rods, break cranks...

 

[poorgradstudent]

Ok, so I pulled the valve cover off this morning and the cam chain is still in tact! Feels tight and when I turn the engine over everything appears to function normally.

I have plastic bags covering the intake boots and I can see suction for each of the cylinders. So can I safely assume all cylinders are moving? Next step will be to remove spark plugs, shine a light and visually confirm.

The more I read about it, the less likely hydrolock seems to me. Water is out because weather has been nice and the bike was running great just before it went dead. As for fuel, I don't think it could be that since I saw no fuel discharge from the fuel overflow lines (wouldn't it flow there first?).

That being said, anything is possible so how can I check to confirm that a rod is bent?

Also, I had power this morning when I turned the ignition on! And when I tried to start it, I heard more electrical shorting noises coming from the rectifier. Could this be why the starter is not engaging?

I'll replace fuses and check continuity tomorrow.

 

[tom203]

petcock could have dumped gas into cylinder,then when you cranked it, mucho pressure on poor piston. Disconnect R/R while you are investigating. Take a peak inside #1 and #4 spark plug hole and see if their pistons are at TDC together

 

[Redman]

.
.The more I read about it, the less likely hydrolock seems to me. ..

Could have been gas in cyclinder the other day, and has since drained out of cyclinder (past the rings) and now in crankcase. See if oil level is way above the sight glass, if so, that aint oil no more.

About the electrical problem .... you have a voltmeter or at least a test light probe?
Cant troubleshoot electrical problems with your eyeballs, well, other than a wire completely disconnected.

.
.
.
.Also, I had power this morning when I turned the ignition on! And when I tried to start it, I heard more electrical shorting noises coming from the rectifier. Could this be why the starter is not engaging?

I'll replace fuses and check continuity tomorrow.

Electrical shorting sound? ...... spark?
or click ?.
If click that is probably coming from the the starter solenoid, the round there with big red cable from battery and other big red cable going to starter. If it is clicking then know the starter button circuit is okay. THe click may be a perfectly good click, just that should also be starter motor sounds also. Or could be a weak click, hard to tell since are not accustom to hearing it anyway.
And, (quess what I am going to say..) can not really troubleshoot electrical problems with your ears. need a volt meter.
Before saying more, would be good to know what battery voltage is, and what it is when try to start, and what is voltage to the solenoid and after solenoid when trying to start.

Or put on small battery charger for a while and see if things are different. If they are then can suspect either weak battery and/or problems with your bikes charging system.




PS: Add bike model and year to signature line (goto UserCP). And maybe add your general location (no need to be too specific) to user profile. Then those things show up in every post.

 

[poorgradstudent]

Could have been gas in cyclinder the other day, and has since drained out of cyclinder (past the rings) and now in crankcase. See if oil level is way above the sight glass, if so, that aint oil no more.

About the complete electrical failure.... you have a voltmeter or at least a test light probe?
Cant troubleshoot electrical problems with your eyeballs, well, other than a wire completely disconnected.


.

I do have a voltmeter, so I can begin checking continuity tonight. Should I drain the oil and check for gas? Not sure if I'll notice or not though. Exactly how much fuel would it take to lock the motor and bend/break a rod?

 

[JTGS850GL]

Exactly how much fuel would it take to lock the motor and bend/break a rod?

Not much if the gas is above the piston. Maybe 1/4 cup or less in one cylinder. Hydro-lock wouldn't explain the loss of electrical power.

My bet is you have a loose connection or a bad battery cable. Check the battery cables going to and from your stater solenoid. You may have a loose connection. You should have 12V+ on one side of the solenoid going to the battery and nothing on the other side when the starter button is not pressed. Once pressed you should have around 12V on both sides (big wires). Have someone push the starter and listen for the "crackling sound". You also want to check the ground wire going to the negative side of the battery from the frame.

 

[Big T]

To determine if you have an interior problem, get

1. 4 drinking straws
2. Sharpie
3. Spark plug tool
4. Wrench to turn crank

A. Remove spark plugs
B. Remove ignition cover
C. Inset straws into spark plug holes
D. Rotate crank to 1-4T
E. Mark the 1&4 straws at the spark plug holes*
F. Mark the 2-3 straws also
G. Rotate crank to 2-3 T
H. Mark all 4 straws again

Pull straws and compare the marks. They should all be the same, crude measurement aside

*use a hemostat or something long to indicate where the straw comes out of the head. Clamp the hemostat/LN pliers/whatever onto the straw and pull it out and mark it

 

[Redman]

..... Should I drain the oil and check for gas? Not sure if I'll notice or not though. ....

How much fuel in cyclinder to cause lock is not much, like someone said, just a cup or little more - I in any one cyclinder so piston cant come all the way up.

But the fuel would go not only in cyclinder and stay there but also drain down past the piston into the crankcase oil, and will be lots more than just a cup, like a quart or more, most of entire tank if left overflowing long enough. SO look at oil level sight glass and see if way high like outta sight, cant see the level because is way past , .... and/or open oil fill and sniff to determine if smells more like gas than oil.


And again, this probably not at all related to electrical problem.


.