I don't understand this R/R I found

[trepperuna]

Hi guys! Great site, where I could finnally learn how to make my bike survive!

I've been reading a lot in here about the regulator issue since mine failed...
Now I have another (used) one from another gs550... and it's failing too (too high voltage to the battery... even if all test have good results). I think I'l keep this one until it dies (refilling the battery if needed).
But I want a spare part (just in case....) .
Anyway: I went to a junk yard and found this big (4 carbs) kawasaki that I could not recognise (plastics were already cannibalized!). I took the regulator, but it has a strange wiring: 1 red/white (separated from the others) and a 4 pin connector with 1 black, 1 Brown and 2 yellow only!
I tested it with multimeter and the brown wire doesn't work as a stator wire (like the 2 yellow ones tested with the black (ground...I guessed) and red/white (power... I guessed)
Does anyone has any idea, please?
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[Boondocks]

You can't just use any R/R for a replacement. This one won't work.

 

[Keith Winter]

Actually, you CAN use almost any kind of R/R, IF you know a bit about electronics and how the system works on our old bikes. Once you know if the bike the R/R came off of is a stator type charging system and NOT new enough to have the automotive style alternator, your half way there. Next, is the old Kawasaki a Reg/rec all in one unit, that is to say there is not a seperate regulator and seperate rectifier like some of our older bikes have. The fact that there is 5 wires would lead me to believe it's a "one peice" R/R. SO, the black wire is almost for sure a ground, yellow wires are for AC so these would hook up to 2 of your stator output wires, red/ white is almost again for sure the other side of ground, that is a positive (battery) that leaves the brown wire. As every bike in our catagory that I have ever heard of have a 3 phase charging system, this would be the 3rd stator output wire. Why it is brown may be to indicate that it is the HEADLIGHT phase of the stator and get's switched in with the headlight. This would mean that the output of the 3rd phase of the stator goes to the headlight switch and then to the R/R. A very simple and safe way to test this is to hook up the yellow wires to 2 of your stator output wires, then get a old headlight (one that works) and hook it up to the black and red/white wires and start the bike up. If the headlight lights up, take a volt meter and check the voltage on the conections at the headlight, if positive is right and negative is right, that is to say the polarity is right, this is good. Just idle the bike for this test. Next, try hooking it up to the bike. Unhook your stock R/R, ground the black wire to the frame and couple the red/white wire to the positive bike wire that would go to the stock R/R. Start the bike and check the voltage at the battery. If it goes up with a little rpm, but not more than 14.5 volts and nothing is to hot, you can move on.The thing to watch for is nothing burning up. Then try hooking up the 3rd stator output wire to the R/R, if everything stays the same, and none of the wires are getting to hot, you SHOULD be ok to put it in the bike and ride on. If the headlight DOESN'T light up, shut the bike off and maybe look for another R/R. You will not damage the stator with a quick test like this as the stock regulator controls the output by shunting (shorting out) the stator anyway. Don't worry about if the R/R you have will take the power from your stator either, almost ALL big bike R/R have the same rating anyway. This is the easiest of all the formula's on this subject to understand. If the R/R came off a bike with, headlight, turn signals, brake light, ect, ect, it will handle the current draw of ANY bike with the same stuff. The math is very simple for this, add up all the wattage of everything that runs on the bike, headlight, tail lights, turn signal bulbs, ect, and divide the total by 14.5 volts. This will give you the amperage drawn. It can then be understood that most bike's use, within 10 watt's or so, the same lights at the same wattage, right? One more thing, if you bike has points ignition it will draw more current than electronic. This is because electronic steps up the 14.5 volts to about 400 volts for the capacitor that zap's the coil. As this is done at the expense of current ( you can't have both) it takes a little less amperage to run the ignition. Good luck.
Keith

 

[Boondocks]

I would not take Keith's advice. I would do a search on this site for R/R's that are known to work and have been used successfully. The popular used Honda replacement R/R's are made by Shindengen. If you do a search for "Shindengen" you will get 36 hits and will find a number of R/R's that are known to work with no risk, fuss, or guesswork. You can find them on eBay at reasonable prices.

 

[trepperuna]

Thank's a lot!!
But I think I took the wrong part. Going back to the junk yard I found a guy that told me that bike used to be a z400-j (kz400 in the US), and looking in the electrex site I found this phrase:

KZ400 and 440 models have a single phase 12-pole stator (2 yellow wires), and a single phase regulator/rectifier (RR60)

So, maybe, the brown wire is the usual brown sensor wire.... of the single phase r/r!! Bad luck!!
I know the honda is the best choice, but here in Italy isn't that easy to find this kind of stuff through ebay!

@Keith: thank's for the deep explanation. I'll save this post for the future! There is just one thing I don't understand:

Once you know if the bike the R/R came off of is a stator type charging system and NOT new enough to have the automotive style alternator

Do you mean that the r/r for new bikes isn't fine?? I'm asking that because here in italy they sell a lot of big scooters (up to 400cc) that use the same R/R of the actual motorcicles (3 phase,6 wires, up to 300W). In here it seems the cheapest way to have a new part.
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[Guy]

Be careful about running your bike 'for the time being' with a bad R/R. You will take out the stator with it eventually. Any 3 phase R/R should be ok. Some of them don't have the sense wire and that's ok too.

 

[trepperuna]

Thanks again, so I better find this R/R quickly!
I've been looking around the forum to understand this "automotive style alternator" thing and I now have an idea of the problem. What I still havn't understood is if all new bikes have this electromagnetic alternetor or a permanent magnet like ours....
Now: the "big scooter" 's regulator I was thinking to buy is the same of the honda cb600 (called hornet in europe), the cbr600 (00/01), the cbr900-rr (92-99), the vfr750 (90-98 ) and some other recent honda models.
Coudl this be good or is an "automotive style"??
Please.... I'm getting really confused....
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[Boondocks]

KZ400 and 440 models have a single phase 12-pole stator (2 yellow wires), and a single phase regulator/rectifier (RR60)

Yes, this makes sense. It was pretty obvious that the R/R that you bought was nonstandard (not three phase) and wouldn't work.

Thanks again, so I better find this R/R quickly!
I've been looking around the forum to understand this "automotive style alternator" thing and I now have an idea of the problem. What I still havn't understood is if all new bikes have this electromagnetic alternetor or a permanent magnet like ours....
Now: the "big scooter" 's regulator I was thinking to buy is the same of the honda cb600 (called hornet in europe), the cbr600 (00/01), the cbr900-rr (92-99), the vfr750 (90-98 ) and some other recent honda models.
Coudl this be good or is an "automotive style"??
Please.... I'm getting really confused....
00

This is a picture of the R/R used on the bikes mentioned above at https://www.electrosport.com/issues.street/ISS_HON_CBR900RR_96_99.html.

All new bikes don't have magnetic field alternators, but I wouldn't try to use this one. If you are determined to try it you could email Electrex to confirm that the R/R works with a permanent magnet alternator. If I couldn't find a used R/R of the type mentioned on this site, since you are in Italy I would buy a new Suzuki R/R from Electrex UK. You can get a new guaranteed R/R from Electrex for 65 Euros.

You might want to edit your Profile to show that you are in Italy. It might save a lot of confusion and wasted effort in the future.

 

[Keith Winter]

I don't know if ALL new bike's come with a automotive style (electromagnet) alternator or not, any dealer or good bike shop should be able to tell you if the make, year and model of bike has one of the two types. The difference in the two is, bike's that have a permanent magnet system, such as the old GS's, have to spin the magnet faster to get more output, the automotive style alternator, such as big touring bike's have, increase the magnetic field with voltage and this is done with a small DC voltage regulator. They still have to spin, and I think it's the stator that spins in a car alternator, but the current is controled by the field and the field is controled by the DC reg. The GS's control the stator output by shunting the AC component of the stator output to ground at the required voltage. The stator system is AC regulation and the car type alternator is DC regulated.
Keith

 

[Boondocks]

I don't know if ALL new bike's come with a automotive style (electromagnet) alternator or not, any dealer or good bike shop should be able to tell you if the make, year and model of bike has one of the two types. The difference in the two is, bike's that have a permanent magnet system, such as the old GS's, have to spin the magnet faster to get more output, the automotive style alternator, such as big touring bike's have, increase the magnetic field with voltage and this is done with a small DC voltage regulator. They still have to spin, and I think it's the stator that spins in a car alternator, but the current is controled by the field and the field is controled by the DC reg. The GS's control the stator output by shunting the AC component of the stator output to ground at the required voltage. The stator system is AC regulation and the car type alternator is DC regulated.
Keith

The stator never spins in any kind of alternator. It's called a stator because it's "static", i.e., not moving. In an automotive alternator, the magnetic field coil rotates around the stator. The field coil is energized by battery power conducted through brushes to slip rings on the rotor shaft. An automotive alternator is regulated by switching the field coil current on when the voltage drops below about 13.5 volts and turning the current off with the voltage reaches about 14.5 volts.

 

[Boondocks]

Now: the "big scooter" 's regulator I was thinking to buy is the same of the honda cb600 (called hornet in europe), the cbr600 (00/01), the cbr900-rr (92-99), the vfr750 (90-98 ) and some other recent honda models.
Coudl this be good or is an "automotive style"??

The link that I supplied above has a web site error and shows the wrong components for a 96-99 Honda CBR900RR. The R/R for the bikes that you mentioned is shown correctly at https://www.electrosport.com/issues.street/ISS_HON_VFR750F_94_97.html. The stators used by the RR58 are the three phase permanent magnet type. This RR58 R/R is also fitted to the Honda FJS600 Silverwing (Scooter). This means that the RR58 used by "big scooters" might be adapted if it is wired properly. If you can get one at a bargain price and there is no problem in fitting it, it may be worth the effort.

 

[Keith Winter]

Though I have never seen the inside of a alternator, I should have known that the stator is the non moving part! thanks for that boondocks. And I thought I said in my post that the field is controled by a DC regulator and hence the output of the alternator, maybe I didn't explain it right, anyway the point I was trying to make to the other fellow was that the auto alternator use's a DC regulator and our bike's use a AC regulator. And Boondocks, you seem to know about this subject, find a copy of the ARRL hand book and check it out. They usualy have schematics on alternator regulators. I have built a few automotive style regulators in my charging system experiments on my 1000. Though they were not what I needed, they are fun to build, if you are into that stuff.
Keith

 

[Dink]

I don't know if ALL new bike's come with a automotive style (electromagnet) alternator or not.
Keith

All Suzuki's upto and including the GSX-R1000k6, still use stator's NOT altenators.
Dink

 

[Boondocks]

All Suzuki's upto and including the GSX-R1000k6, still use stator's NOT altenators.
Dink

Maybe what you are meaning to say is that all Suzukis use permanent magnet alternators, not field coil (automotive type) alternators. All types of alternators use stators. All modern vehicles use alternators, but motorcycles and small engines usually use the simpler but less efficient permanent magnet alternator. Field coil alternators are increasingly used in bigger bikes.

 

[Nerobro]

What you need is a r/r from a bike with a three phase alternator. the CX500 is my favorite, as they are cheap and common. The other way to look at it is that you're looking for a "five or six wire" regulator rectifier. Five wire r/r's have 3 wires for the phases of the stator, one for ground, and one for positive. Six wire r/r's have another "sence" wire. Generally speaking it's okey to tie the sence wire to the positve feed. That's all the five wire r/r's do anyway.

 

[Boondocks]

What you need is a r/r from a bike with a three phase alternator. the CX500 is my favorite, as they are cheap and common. The other way to look at it is that you're looking for a "five or six wire" regulator rectifier. Five wire r/r's have 3 wires for the phases of the stator, one for ground, and one for positive. Six wire r/r's have another "sence" wire. Generally speaking it's okey to tie the sence wire to the positve feed. That's all the five wire r/r's do anyway.

Practically all alternators are three phase. Single phase alternators are rare. Not all R/R's from three phase alternators will work. They have to be R/R's from permanent magnet alternators for the replacement to work. It isn't always a five or six wire R/R that will work, although this is most common. Some eight wire Honda R/R's with duplicate red and green wires will work just fine.

This poor guy at Which Honda Regulator/Rectifier to use on my '81 GS450? bought two eight wire Honda R/R's in a row on eBay that were the field coil type that wouldn't work on his Suzuki.

 

[Dink]

Maybe what you are meaning to say is that all Suzukis use permanent magnet alternators, not field coil (automotive type) alternators. All types of alternators use stators. All modern vehicles use alternators, but motorcycles and small engines usually use the simpler but less efficient permanent magnet alternator. Field coil alternators are increasingly used in bigger bikes.

NO I mean that ALL Suzuki's use a DC generator and a rectifier/regulator. NO ALTENATORS!!!
Dink
Suzuki's own Tech people told me so!!!

 

[trepperuna]

The R/R for the bikes that you mentioned is shown correctly at https://www.electrosport.com/issues.street/ISS_HON_VFR750F_94_97.html. The stators used by the RR58 are the three phase permanent magnet type. This RR58 R/R is also fitted to the Honda FJS600 Silverwing (Scooter). This means that the RR58 used by "big scooters" might be adapted if it is wired properly. If you can get one at a bargain price and there is no problem in fitting it, it may be worth the effort.

YES! That's exacly the part! \\/ Thanks a lot!

I went to the UK electrex too and I found the rr11 for 65 euros (plus tax & shippping), what is incredible to me is that it looks like they don't ship to Italy!! Allovertheworld else, but not in here! I'll call them to understand this fact.

How do you recognise the different configuration?
I think it would be very usefull if there was a way to understand from the internet if a motorbike uses permanent magnet or field coil.
The electrx spec.s looks usefull, but I can't notice any difference from the r/r and stator for my bike and the Goldwing one, that should be of the other kind.
I understood tha "wrong" regulator should have some DC specification somewhere, and that field coil stator have brushes and .... coils, but I think they are the in othert side of the pert it's sold at electrex.

00

 

[Nerobro]

Dink, All suzuki's use alternators. They're permanant magnet type, but they do generate AC. They are by defnition, alternators.

And like I said. CX500 ones work. CB500 ones work. CB650 ones will work. ;-)

 

[Boondocks]

YES! That's exacly the part! \\/ Thanks a lot!

I went to the UK electrex too and I found the rr11 for 65 euros (plus tax & shippping), what is incredible to me is that it looks like they don't ship to Italy!! Allovertheworld else, but not in here! I'll call them to understand this fact.

How do you recognise the different configuration?
I think it would be very usefull if there was a way to understand from the internet if a motorbike uses permanent magnet or field coil.
The electrx spec.s looks usefull, but I can't notice any difference from the r/r and stator for my bike and the Goldwing one, that should be of the other kind.
I understood tha "wrong" regulator should have some DC specification somewhere, and that field coil stator have brushes and .... coils, but I think they are the in othert side of the pert it's sold at electrex.

00

You're welcome.

Hopefully, they just forgot to include Italy on their shipment list. It doesn't make any sense otherwise.:?

This is how you can recognize the different configurations of permanent magnet and field coil:

1. For a given R/R on the Electrex/Electrosport web site, find the stator(s) that work with it.

2. Find the stator on Electrosport Technical Specifications or download the Electrosport Catalog and confirm that the stator is the three phase permanent magnet type.

3. If the stator is the permanent magnet type, then you know that the associated R/R is a PM type.