Imminent Stator or R/R failure????

[spyug]

Out for a ride this afternoon and the first thing I notice is that I don't seem to be charging.

When I first got the bike two years back I put in the direct ground from the R/R to the battery and I always had charging around 14 volts when at Idle. Once into the revs it would drop off toa round 12 volts.

Today at idle it dropped to 10 volts or so and would only go to about 12 volts when revved abit. After riding about 20 minutes I stopped and shut down for about 15 minutes. Started fine and ran ok and after about another 10 minutes it seemed to start charging the way I had always seen it i.e. up to about 14 at idle then back down to about 12v at 3000+ revs.

One slight difference I noted was that when coming down to idle the needle would hover around 12 volts and wouldn't jump to 14v until I blipped it.

So I'm wondering if I'm looking at the dreaded stator failure or at the very least a poopy R/R.

Thoughts folks?

Cheers all,
Spyug

 

[posplayr]

Hi Spyug,

I know you have apparently always seen this, but it is not normal.

Started fine and ran ok and after about another 10 minutes it seemed to start charging the way I had always seen it i.e. up to about 14 at idle then back down to about 12v at 3000+ revs.

Your symptoms are unusual, but without sorting the connections out there is no way to tell. See the updated Stator pages with more details about how the charging should work and how the diagnosis should proceed.

Basically 12.8-13.2V is about what you should have at idle (depending upon speed) and it should rise to 14.5V nominal at 5000 RPM. If you are at 14.0 V at idle, that is a high idle (nothing to do with charging) and then dropping to 12v at 3000 RPM means you have a high resistance/bad conections on the positive lead from R/R (+) to Battery (+). Could be in the fuse box.

Sort this first and all the symptoms might go away.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=143019

Pos

 

[Killer2600]

Kinda what he said, the charging system doesn't work that way. You should never get less voltage at speed than you do at idle and 10v at idle is a dying or heavily discharging battery. Based on what you've reported it could be anything in the charging system but you need to check your connections first.

 

[spyug]

Thanks guys. I had always thought the higher charging at idle was odd but pushed it to the back of my mind.

I did clean connections when I first got it but I guess I only did it to "Government spec." i.e. not very well.

Its raining today so once the chores are done I'll sneak out to the man room and have at it. I better bone up on the S-papers first though.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

cheers,
Spyug

 

[spyug]

So I cleaned up the R/r connectors and it helped a bit. It idles around 12/13V and pushes up to 14.8 as the revs climb to about 3/3500. It then drops down again but hovers around high 12s as the revs go up to and past 5000.

I think the atator maybe on its way out as this is one of the symptoms mentioned that and I only get 22volts across the stator yellow leads. Its not looking good

I will now go through the Papers in detail.

Wish me luck.

Spyug

 

[posplayr]

So I cleaned up the R/r connectors and it helped a bit. It idles around 12/13V and pushes up to 14.8 as the revs climb to about 3/3500. It then drops down again but hovers around high 12s as the revs go up to and past 5000.

If you get 14.8V at 3000-3500 RPM, I don't think there is anything wrong with your stator.

Are you sure your were on AC mode with the yellow wires disconnected when you measure the stator? That is how the voltage test is defined.

The reason the voltage drops off at the battery at high RPM is the electrical load of the engine increases with RPM and requires more current. So even though you like have 14.8 volts at the regulator R/R (+), the current you are pushing causes a voltage drop through that parasitic resistance. It could be 1.5-2 Volts which would take the 14.8 at the R/R down to 13.3-12.8 at the battery.

So sounds like you have a little problem with resistance between the R/R (+) and the Battery(+). It is most likely in the fuse box if you cleaned connections.

Without knowing what the voltage drops are across the terminals that is about all I can tell. Sound like you might be having an issue with overcharging if anything. Are you using a Honda Regulator?

 

[spyug]

Thanks for the further input. I rechecked the Papers and realized that as a 3 phase stator each "leg" should , when added, total better than 60V. Doh! With mine each putting out 22V I'm at 66V so I'm good there.

My multimeter internal battery crapped and as I don't have a spare (isn't that always the way?) I couldn't run resistance checks yet. I'll need to hit the store this afternooon.

You are most likely right that there is some resistance on the red lead so tha'll be next to verify.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Cheers,
spyug

 

[posplayr]

I rechecked the Papers and realized that as a 3 phase stator each "leg" should , when added, total better than 60V. Doh! With mine each putting out 22V I'm at 66V so I'm good there.

No

Voltage is between any two legs.

Are you running a Honda?

 

[spyug]

Ok so now I am cornfuzzed. I get 22 volts between each pair. Three possible "pairs" total 66v no? Stock components by the way.

I also did the red lead from the R/R to the battery test and came out at about .5 v so that's not good. I tried to clean up the contacts but I couldn't do anything with the fuse block as its one of the sealed type. So short of changing out the fuse block and leads I think I've done all I can with that.

It is charging to 13.9 v at around 5000 rpm so while not ideal, it is at least charging.

So if I'm not getting what I should out of the stator and the fuse block and or wires are putting up resistance I guess I could be having a couple of compounding problems

For the time being, I'll keep an eye on it and as long as its showing charging for most of the ride I won't have a panic attack.

Thanks for your interest and input.

cheers,
spyug

 

[Jagir]

maybe similar issue

maybe similar issue

I haven't checked the readings yet, but unless I throttle up to 3500 or higher, my turn signals are constant (ie, not blinking). Also the indicator lights get brighter with higher revs. Its a minor issue because I can manually flick the switch back and forth, or use my hands and I seldom ride at night.

Been slowly working through the system: new battery (needed one after a few years anyway), cleaned up all the electrical connections and found a couple of nasty ones. Next is a new turn signal switch. Then I'm going to look at the stator.

I'll keep an interested eye on this thread.

 

[spyug]

Charging is usually an issue with these old Jap bikes. It was too on myXS and my Virago before that. The first thing I usually do is put on a voltage meter ( Princess Auto about $7). The other thing I always do is clean up all the grounds as many experts note that this is a major source of electrical issues. Cleaning up all contacts is also highly desireable.

When I first got the GS it didn't charge but doing the sperate lead from the R/R ground directly to the battery negative seemed to fix that. Up until yesterday anyway. Give that a try.

Your flasher might be duff as well so try changing that out to a 2 pole (552) auto flasher. In addition, check and clean all your bulb sockets and make sure your bulbs are all the same wattage. That was a problem on the XSs, they would only work with 23watt bulbs....gofigure.

Never a dull moment with these old puppies.

Good luck with your issues.

Cheers,
spyug

 

[Nessism]

Ok so now I am cornfuzzed. I get 22 volts between each pair. Three possible "pairs" total 66v no? Stock components by the way.

I also did the red lead from the R/R to the battery test and came out at about .5 v so that's not good. I tried to clean up the contacts but I couldn't do anything with the fuse block as its one of the sealed type. So short of changing out the fuse block and leads I think I've done all I can with that.

It is charging to 13.9 v at around 5000 rpm so while not ideal, it is at least charging.

So if I'm not getting what I should out of the stator and the fuse block and or wires are putting up resistance I guess I could be having a couple of compounding problems

For the time being, I'll keep an eye on it and as long as its showing charging for most of the ride I won't have a panic attack.

Thanks for your interest and input.

cheers,
spyug

Your stator should put out about 45 volts minimum on each leg, actually, it should be something like 60 volts but 45 will get the job done. Sounds like your stator is on borrowed time.

 

[posplayr]

Spyug,
Are you sure you are removing the connections between stator and R/R when you measure 22V? The test is supposed to be done open loop (i.e. stator disconnected).

You are correct 13.9V is borderline. At 5000 RPM you are probably seeing 0.75V across that positive lead.

Not sure what fuze box, you have but the ones I have seen open up (pop off the back) . I do some type of an acid wash (coke would probably even work). Then if you have access I solder the crimps to keep out any more corrosion. My 1100ED fusebox has no crimps just a plug so the acid dip with some dialetric grease does well there.

So did your original symptoms go away even if the 13.9V is marginal?

Jim

P.S. I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with your stator.

Ok so now I am cornfuzzed. I get 22 volts between each pair. Three possible "pairs" total 66v no? Stock components by the way.

I also did the red lead from the R/R to the battery test and came out at about .5 v so that's not good. I tried to clean up the contacts but I couldn't do anything with the fuse block as its one of the sealed type. So short of changing out the fuse block and leads I think I've done all I can with that.

It is charging to 13.9 v at around 5000 rpm so while not ideal, it is at least charging.

So if I'm not getting what I should out of the stator and the fuse block and or wires are putting up resistance I guess I could be having a couple of compounding problems

For the time being, I'll keep an eye on it and as long as its showing charging for most of the ride I won't have a panic attack.

Thanks for your interest and input.

cheers,
spyug

 

[spyug]

Yup I'm sure I did it right as I didn't get into the wobbly pops until supper time. I'll give it another go tonight just to double check.

The fuse block is a bit frustrating as I can see how its fitted together but it doesn't seem to want to come apart. I wonder if its glued. I was afraid of busting it so I let it be. I wonder if new ones would be available.

I'm of mixed emotions about what to do next. a new stator doesn't seem too expensive and it might also benefit from one of Ds R/R units. On the other hand, I am having a problem trying to sell my XS ( need some cash freed up) and having no luck so the GS might need to go instead. I'd hate to have it down for any length of time and I'm not likely to get my money back out of it if I pour more in....so what to do?

As I mentioned there is charging going on so its not a total loss but its always going to niggle at the back of my mind and it will take away from the joy of the ride if I'm worrying about it. Someday I wish I could buy a brand spanking new ride and just ride it with no wrenching...nirvana

Thanks for all the input.

Cheers,
spyug

 

[850 Combat]

I no longer trust the bullet connectors on the stator leads. I'm going to hard wire the leads to the R&R. It is wierd that all three ststor leads would put out 22 volts at 5000 RPM. In my experience, it is hard to get good connections to the meter leads whendoing that test. I might try again. Try the ohm test too.

I have recently had similar symtems on a GS1100G. It was stator lead connections which I thought I had already sorted out, but they didn't stay sorted. Make sure they are truely tight and clean. Mine were tight to put together, but actually loosened when snapped together.

What do the plastic sheathes look like on the bullet connectors, are they visibly cooked?

 

[bakalorz]

Ok so now I am cornfuzzed. I get 22 volts between each pair. Three possible "pairs" total 66v no? Stock components by the way.

I also did the red lead from the R/R to the battery test and came out at about .5 v so that's not good. I tried to clean up the contacts but I couldn't do anything with the fuse block as its one of the sealed type. So short of changing out the fuse block and leads I think I've done all I can with that.

It is charging to 13.9 v at around 5000 rpm so while not ideal, it is at least charging.

So if I'm not getting what I should out of the stator and the fuse block and or wires are putting up resistance I guess I could be having a couple of compounding problems

For the time being, I'll keep an eye on it and as long as its showing charging for most of the ride I won't have a panic attack.

Thanks for your interest and input.

cheers,
spyug

The 22 volts is too low.
Assuming that the test was done correctly, that would indicate problems with the stator ( I'll guess degrading insulation, allowing arcing to occur)

The insulation degrades by getting cracks in it and flaking off.
where cracks on adjacent coils are near enough it can then short across the coils, effectively taking them out of the circuit.
If it hasn't degraded too much yet (and I'll guess it hasn't since it still charges some) you might be able to "fix" your existing stator for fairly cheap and easy.

The insulation on the wires is a type of varnish. Stator winding wire comes with a layer of varnish on it, but after the stator is wound, it is supposed to be dipped (or possibly painted) with additional varnish.

There are a series of procedures on how to clean, dry, revarnish, and then bake windings. I don't know the details, but a motor winding shop would.

I would call around to them and see how much it would be to either have them revarnish, or for the varnish to do it yourself.

I would assume this would be much less $ than a new stator or even having it rewound (certainly less effort than a rewind).

I have no actual experience with doing it, but it possibly an option to look into.

 

[flyingace]

I had intermittant charging problems recently. Turns out the wires from the stator to the R/R had fried in the starter motor housing where they are routed. It is worthwhile to make sure your wires and connections are intact thru the entire charging system before buying any replacement parts.

 

[spyug]

Thanks guys. More things to think about.

I bought a small 6 position fuse block today and i'm thinking about putting that in and taking out the old stocker which seems to be giving some resistance.

The connector from the stator to the RR uses spade connectors. I cleaned them as best I could but without junking the old plastic connector and putting fresh spades in place I guess i may not have the best & cleanest connections. I would have liked to keep the stock bits and pieces in place but that might not be feasible.

I'm going to do the stator test again tonight and see where that leads me.

I'll let you know how it works out.

Cheers,
spyug

 

[spyug]

Well I had another go at testing the stator wires and to my horror I found I couldn't get any voltage from them. Lots of head scratching. Plug the connector back on and sure enough I'm getting charging as before. Take off the connector and try again, nada, nothing. This is bizzare. I was getting 22V yesterday, nothing showing today and yet still charging????

Nuts, that connector is coming off. Snip it off and attache new spades. Plug them on and now I have charging at 14.8v around 1500rpm to about 3500 rpm dropping to 14.1 up to and past 5000 rpm. It never drops under 14v right up to almost redline. Had to stop working then ( making too much racket says the boss) so didn't get a chance to test the stator legs nor time to wire in the new fuse block.

It is still definitely not right but it seems to be going in the right direction.
I'll have another go at testing tomorrow and will maybe wire in the new fuse block.

Cheers all,

Spyug

 

[posplayr]

further evidence there is noting wrong with the stator. Instead it sounds like there is no regulation. If you have a Honda R/R, check the voltage at the sense point relative to the R/R ground with lights on. If it is below 14.5v then you will overcharge. If the overcharging persists following the voltage drop measurements, it is probably not regulating and requires being changed.

As mentioned before, get al connections so that the voltages are are required. Nothing may need changing other than connectors.

Pos