It wasn't broke, so I tried to fix it...

[en12gine]

Katana Craig here...again. I've been reading and reading and now I'm lost. I should have just left the damn thing alone and now I'm feeling screwed. Pardon the length, but here's what's happened:

Bought a 97 Katana 600 with 6,000 miles for next to nothing. Been sitting in a garage for 2 years. Replaced the dry rotted tires and fuel line. Ran great, but fuel poured out the carbs. Read on here it was a petcock problem. GREAT...replaced it...and it ran good, but sputtered. Had to replace the oil filter and oil (due to gas being in it). Ran great for awhile. Noticed (foolishly) that the oil wasn't registering in the site glass (because I didn't have it level) so I ADDED OIL! That's when my serious problems began. I rode it the next day about a mile and a half and it started to sputter with no power. Called a buddy of mine and he laughed hysterically as to how much oil I had in it. "You have more oil than I do in my truck! Drain it, clean the plugs, and you should be fine." So I did. Drained it back to the level it should be (or at least believe it to be). Cleaned the plugs. Cranked it back up, and would run idle for 5-6 minutes and fail again. so, I read that it is a carb problem. I took them off and apart and cleaned (all except the needle jet which refuses to come out). Also, cleaned out the tank with the seal solution they sell at the shop. Put it together and it ran put poured out the carbs again. So ORINGS was the problem. Replaced them (the carb floats on this year/moel are one plastic piece which are all in good shape to the naked eye). After replacing the orings, put it back together, now it won't start. AAAAAAARGH!!!!!!

Now, it has fuel in the line, cranks and pops, but won't run. I feel like a dog chasing my own tail, except that I keep biting it and yelping in pain! I am in desperate need of some advice on what to do next. Back out the airscrews? A mechanic told me a possible air leak... from where???

I've learned more about bikes from this resource than anywhere else. I KNOW the answer is here! I've dug in this far, and fixed all the other problems...I want to do it myself and get it on the road. I'm off to the garage to tear apart again and clean again. I hope someone has some direction for me.

Katana Craig in KY

P.S. Figured I'd put this in too. Baffles out of the exhaust. Plugs 1 and 4 were black when replaced prior to oil debockle.

 

[DimitriT]

Did you prime the carbs before trying to start it? Carbs need to sit on prime for a while in order to fill up otherwise it won't start. Does your petcock work on prime? Test it by looking at the flow.

It sounds like fuel isn't getting into the carbs. Maybe the floats are stuck?

Are you using choke when you crank it?

What shape is you battery in? You should make sure its charged up (a battery charger is a good thing to have).

If the bike ran before you dug into the carbs its got to be the carbs, right?

 

[Steve]

Are you using choke when you crank it?

Are you using the throttle while cranking? DON'T.

Using the throttle while cranking, especially if you are using the 'choke', will destroy the vacuum that is trying to pull the extra fuel through the enrichener circuit.

You might also want to do a bench sync to get the carbs close enough to be able to start.

.

 

[en12gine]

it wasn't broke...

it wasn't broke...

Yes...using full choke.

Using a battery charger here.

Not using the throttle.

the fuel is getting to the carbs as I'm watching the fuel filter with fuel in it and the vacuum must be working for that to happen.

It's got to be the carbs, but what part. Syncing them I'm not aware of how to do. the new orings fit snug, so I'll go back and check the floats again. Everything seems to be moving fine. Maybe it was just a hickup and a bad day. Some days everything seems to go along fine, and others, things seem to mess up. Well, back to the carbs...I'll check in again later with any updates. Might be awhile though...thanks again fellas.

 

[Dave8338]

Here's a safe way to cheat: Throw some 2-cycle mix (40:1) in a spray bottle and while turning the bike over, give it a few squirts into the airbox, without the filter in. If you can get the bike to start and maintain a general idle using the spray bottle, you know it is the fuel supply. At that point...start from the tank and work your way down. If while "cleaning" the carbs, you moved nothing or changed any of the settings, your carb rack should be still set colse enough to get the bike to run.

 

[en12gine]

it wasn't broke...

it wasn't broke...

Well, I don't seem to have any vacuum on the fuel line for some reason. It might come back to the petcock I guess. Unfortunately, I did remove the air screws to clean them, and the shop man told me that the standard was all in and back 2 1/2 turns.

I had the bike started for just a second, but it was full choke, and after giving it just a hint of thottle, it went to about 3,000 rpm and bogged down. If I gave more, it would bog down more, then let up on the throttle, and it would simmer down some...then die. Nothing else since then. I'm going to take the carbs off and try to adjust the air screws. I'm guessing that it needs more air to fire off, so back them out...hope I'm right. Well, I guess i'll find out here in a few minutes. Thanks again. Oh, would the 40:1 mix be close to WD40? I had a guy tell me that yesterday. Just wondering as I have some of that accessible.

 

[Dave8338]

If when you hit the throttle the bike bogged and then setteled back into an idle once the throttle was releases...then it indicates a lean condition. Can you start it and not touch the throttle? 2 1/2 out should surely get it to idle. The vacuum for the petcock should come from the #2 carb. There is a line that runs from the supply nipple on the carb, up to the petcock...you do have that connected, yes? WD-40...UM no, don't use that to try to start the bike.

Can you verify that the petcock flows in the RUN and RES positions by sucking on the vacuum line from the #2 carb? How about in the PRI position, with NO suction provided?

 

[jola]

Are you using the throttle while cranking? DON'T.

Using the throttle while cranking, especially if you are using the 'choke', will destroy the vacuum that is trying to pull the extra fuel through the enrichener circuit.

You might also want to do a bench sync to get the carbs close enough to be able to start.

.

Oh man, I always use the throttle. Guess I better stop that.

 

[en12gine]

it DID run...

it DID run...

If when you hit the throttle the bike bogged and then setteled back into an idle once the throttle was releases...then it indicates a lean condition. Can you start it and not touch the throttle? 2 1/2 out should surely get it to idle. The vacuum for the petcock should come from the #2 carb. There is a line that runs from the supply nipple on the carb, up to the petcock...you do have that connected, yes? WD-40...UM no, don't use that to try to start the bike.

Can you verify that the petcock flows in the RUN and RES positions by sucking on the vacuum line from the #2 carb? How about in the PRI position, with NO suction provided?

It wouldn't start but once or twice...LOTS of cranking. Actually, when I took the carbs off, the vacuum was hooked to the #4 carb. I tried "suction" on the end of the tube coming from that, and all I got was air...no movement of fuel into the carbs. My petcock has the PRI blocked off and the supply line goes through a fuel filter, then splits from a "Y" into the fuel nipples between 1-2 and 3-4. That's probably where mine being a '97 is different than this forum. All lines are connected though. I tried taking the petcock off and blowing in the vacuum nipple, but met no air movement. thought that might be a bad thing too...but not sure.

 

[DimitriT]

Yea so it sounds like your carb bowls are dry man.

You gotta find a way to prime them.

Most of us know the old bikes well but the 97 is prolly different so you'll
need to help us figure out the petcock (for starters).

I would look for some way to get fuel flowing out of the petcock. Once that's
done then get the carbs primed up.

And then crank it.

Should start and run for a bit.

 

[first timer]

are you tring to run this bike on stock carb settings with no air filter?

if thats the case it could be way to lean. try putting back the air box and filter then try to start it.

can you just hook a hose up to the carbs and a little funnel and just pour a little gas down that hose. That way you can get the carbs filled with gas if the petcock doesn't work. use it as a test method.

did you replace the spark plugs? try a fresh set, sometimes the plugs just get touchy.

don't know how the carbs connect to the motor on your bike but make sure there are no leaks there.

how did you clean the carbs? did you dip them or just spray them?

 

[en12gine]

are you tring to run this bike on stock carb settings with no air filter?

if thats the case it could be way to lean. try putting back the air box and filter then try to start it.

can you just hook a hose up to the carbs and a little funnel and just pour a little gas down that hose. That way you can get the carbs filled with gas if the petcock doesn't work. use it as a test method.

did you replace the spark plugs? try a fresh set, sometimes the plugs just get touchy.

don't know how the carbs connect to the motor on your bike but make sure there are no leaks there.

how did you clean the carbs? did you dip them or just spray them?

As a matter of fact, I have tried to start with the airbox and filter off. I will try that as well. Since the mufflers have baffles out, I hear that this makes it run lean too. Lucky me.
This damn petcock thing has me going back and forth whether or not it's the issue. Sometimes it flows good and others it doesn't. Thought about going ahead and purchasing another one in case this one got ruined from the bad gas and rust from before.
I think the new plugs is a great idea, but won't be able to get any until tomorrow, so that'll be next on the list. Also, I like the funnel idea to prime the carbs. I'm out to try this yet again. Cross your fingers as I'm almost to the end of my abilities. I'm sure with more patience, I'll figure it out with your all's help. Any and all ideas are welcome. Keep 'em coming.
Oh yeah, as for the cleaning. I couldn't dip the carb body due to the needle jet not budging and being in a plastic casing inside the carb. Figured the carb dip would harm or ruin that plastic housing it sits in. If not, I'm off to dip the bastards. All pieces otherwise have been dipped, and/or spray cleaned and blown dry with compressed air. Thanks again for the ideas...I'm out to the garage to sweat my nads off! Wish me luck!

 

[first timer]

what number are you taking about?

http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/showschematic/m6176sch247324

if you are talking about #42 or #15 both of those need to come out. #42 is part of the idle circut and #15 helps mist the fuel. If #15 is hard to get out it may be held in by the main jet remove the main jet and spray some carb cleaner in all the little holes and ports of the carb. There might be some varnish glueing the needle jet in place in place. You could try to very delicatly tapping #15 from the bottom so it would move toward the top the the carb. Be very careful and use a piece of plastic or wood that is small enough to clear the the carb body and tap very lightly!

if you can take pictures that might help as well.

maybe take the carb bodies as striped down as you can get them to a bike shop maybe they can get the rest of the stuff out easy. SOme shops even have a water based carb cleaner that uses a detergent, heat and agitation to clean the carbs. This cleaning system is much kinder to rubber/plastic parts then the berryman type cleaner. Shouldn't cost to much either you did most of the work taking every thing about they just need to dip them in a chemical.

you might not need to go to a dealer for plugs try a autozone or some place your plugs are ngk CR9EK plugs

 

[en12gine]

Yeah, number 15 is the one that won't budge. It sits in the housing that doesn't have a number on it.

Here's an update though. I put all the parts back on and (once again) replaced the fuel lines and a separate "T" for fuel separation. Got it back together completely (tank, seat, the works!)

IT FIRED RIGHT UP!! Ran great. I let it idle for more than 10 minutes to make sure it was good. So, I took it out in the parking lot and did a few laps. About 20 minutes later, it started bogging down again. I parked it back in the garage to try and adjust the idle screw, but am back to the trouble starting again. It will fire up for just a second with full choke, rev up to about 3,000, then back to dead. do you think that this can be caused by that #15 part (main jet?)? Just a thought. Thanks again for everything on here. It feels good to rub a little dirt in the noses of those around you who don't think you can get it done! that's worth it in itself...now I just got to get it back to the way it was about an hour ago .

 

[TurboChris]

my non expert opinion after that last post is that maybe something is clogging things up somewhere....it sits....then starts up.........then after a bit it clogs up and dies...then you let it sit and it disapates or disolves.....I don't know....almost sounds like it...

 

[first timer]

did you completly take everything apart?

besides #15 which is called the needle jet? some times there are litlte screens that go on needle valve assembly that clog with dirt. I would bet you have crap in the needle valve. take the carbs off or drain the bowls into some sort of pan, i bet there will be crud that drains with it.

 

[en12gine]

Yeah, I like the theory of something clogging it, but I tell ya, I've cleaned this SOB from top to bottom including the tank, bowls, you name it. I even soaked the needle jet for about 10 minutes with carb cleaner (not soaking as in submerged, but rather doused it thoroughly). After the last post, I went out, and it took a second and fired right back up. Rode it around, and so far so good. When I get off shift in the morning, I'm going to take her for a spin down the road. That way, if she loses power again, I'll just hitch a ride back with the BIG RED FIRE TRUCK and call a bud with a trailor. So, as it stands right now, it's running good...scratch that...pretty good! I"m still planning on taking it to the shop to do the sync with the airscrews due to not having the proper tools to do that. Thanks again SOOOOO much to everyone for their expert (and even non-expert) opinions. It's such a wonderful feeling. Now, to get my wife and go for a ride. THEN I'll get on the bike and see how it feels too! I'll give an update on Monday to see how things went. THANKS AGAIN!!!!!!!!

 

[first timer]

you could try and fill the carbs up with 50:50 mix of gas and seafoam. and then add some to the tank as well. see if that happens

is you petcock vacume operated? hook the vacume end up to a hose and carefull suck on it and see if gas comes out the gas end. be careful you might get a mouth full of gas.

 

[DimitriT]

bro do yourself a favor before packing it for a weekend trip.. get the petcock figured out. It still sounds like its not flowing right. BTW, a kink in the hose or bad hose routing might do it too. If the hose loops up a bit cause its too long you'll get an air pocket it won't flow right. Sounds like you got a nice rider there once its figured out.

 

[en12gine]

aHA!

aHA!

bro do yourself a favor before packing it for a weekend trip.. get the petcock figured out. It still sounds like its not flowing right. BTW, a kink in the hose or bad hose routing might do it too. If the hose loops up a bit cause its too long you'll get an air pocket it won't flow right. Sounds like you got a nice rider there once its figured out.

Now there's something I didn't think of. I did replace the fuel line with newer hose and LONGER because the other seemed like $hit. I'll trim it down a bit and see how that works. Might not, but I did put on a lengthy section of replacement hose. Thanks for the tip!