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Just a Click - Help!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Norseman
  • Start date Start date
Assumptions

Assumptions

Well, I jumped the starter motor - from battery positive to motor main lug and from battery negative to touching the starter motor housing near bolts. Nothing, no response. Tried two different good batteries, both fully charged.

So, my assumption is: 1) Starter motor shorted and fried, 2) Since no click can be detected from solenoid in regular connection, the bad starter fried the solenoid as well.

My question is: When I picked the bike up from PO, he stated that he thought the battery was on its last legs as it would not hold a charge more than a couple of days. Could it be that the starter was on its way out, and it was actually draining the battery. The reason I ask is I'm concerned over the infamous charging weakness (reg/rec and stator issues), and it may have been the starter and not necessarily the charging system? I intend to replace the reg/rec with the Electrex, but the starter/solenoid will eat that money up for now.:cry:

Norseman
 
The old airplanes I work on have a problem with the start relay sticking. This causes a high current drain on the battery and a over taxing of the charging system. Some guys put a wire on the starter post and run it back to a instrument panel light just to make sure once started the relay releases (light goes out). Maybe your relay got stuck or your starter button is sticky.
 
Think its passed on...

Think its passed on...

I can see that happening, and now you got me going on running that up to an indicator with a ground.

In this case, though, bypassing the solenoid didn't do a thing, I can't even get a spark from the starter motor connecting directly to battery...

Norseman
 
Pull the starter out, if its easy (never tried). and put the positive on the positive lead and negitive on the negitive. If nothing try taking the starter apart (if you can on these old starters) and try cleaning up the armature and maybe replace the brushes. I think you should be able to do this, but have never took one of these apart.
Nick
 
Yea! what he said. Still not sure you're getting a good, correct ground. Not sure if the starter has a ground wire coming out of it or not. Plus the positive cable could have gotten damaged somehow.
 
pull it and take it apart...

pull it and take it apart...

If you've directly applied voltage to the starter and it hasn't turned...before you go and buy a new/used one...take the old one out....

wasn't too bad on my bike, just had to move the carbs outta the way to get the starter motor cover off...starter then just slides out...

mine had 2 long bolts holding the end cap on...took them off, end cap comes off and the bits just slide out.

Seems to be a 'known'? problem that oil/grim can get inside the starter cover and then work its way inside the starter...

Clean off the copper spindle thingy (thats a technical term mind you!) and the brushes. When you put it back together, look to see if the brushes are making contact, if so, reassemble and apply power to see if it spins...if yes, put it back in the bike and try again....

if no, you may just need new brushes. There's not too much in there that can 'break' really...

but I'm no expert...it worked for me...bike starts like a champ now.
 
Take it apart and check it out as stated above, then get back to us.
 
Status

Status

Well, here's where I'm at. Removed starter and dis-assembled. Very dirty and grimey inside. However, the problem was the positive brush, down to the wire and shot. No longer touching armature. Took the brush plate to an alternator/starter repair/rebuild shop, and the guy was knowledgeable and kind enough to adapt a brush he had, and even soldered it for me - $10. Stopped by Auto Zone and picked up the Wells F496 solenoid - $10.

Got home and cleaned up the starter body and armature. Took some emery cloth and spit-shined the armature. Put a little axle grease on armature axle end and housing bushings. Re-assembled starter motor and tested with battery direct - man, that starter came to life! Starter is good again. Back into the bike, on with the tensioner, carbs, and tank.

Fabbed a set-back mounting bracket (the F496 is deeper with bracket holes closer together), painted/baked new bracket and re-assembled and wired evrything up. Put battery in and tested - nothing, nada, not even a click from the brand new solenoid. Also have a connection issue - I get intermittant power to ignition/neutral lights in instrument cluster. Jostling wires gets the juice through, but still nothing.

Here's the only thing I can think of; the Suzuki solenoid has three connections, battery positve, starter cable, and the yellow wire for ignition/run/starter button. The F496 solenoid has four connections: two main posts for battery and starter, and two additional smaller connections on the side (Terminal "I" and Terminal "S"). The solenoid didn't come with any wiring instructions, but a little note in the box says "If original solenoid has three terminals, do not use the "I" terminal. In addition, the solenoid has the main posts on the top and bottom of the solenoid, with no indication which is positive and which one is for starter cable. So I connected the top post to battery and bottom post to starter cable. Then I removed the yellow/black wire from old solenoid, put a connector on and attached it to the "S" terminal.

I have tried to connect the small yellow/black wire to the other small connection "I", that didn't help. Then I put it back on the "S" terminal, but ran a ground wire from the "I" terminal, that didn't help.

So the only thing left that I can think of is to switch the main posts and try that. I thought it was logical that the battery positive would go to the top main post rather than the bottom, but who knows? It is a car solenoid. Anyway, I would have thought I would at least hear the click? So if anyone has used the Wells F496, how is it properly wired? If you read this, MidnightRider, how did you wire it up?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!!!

Norseman
 
Last edited:
SO close but SO far.............................
I don't think it matters which way the cable goes on the solenoid.
Take off your right handle bar switches and clean the kill switch and the starter button.
 
There's another solenoid that fits in the original spot better, and is wired the same, if you get one for a lawn tractor (MTD, Yard King, etc.), it'll work fine. BUT, I suspect you're experiencing the same problem I was when I replaced my regulator rectifier......Very poor grounds. Run a ground wire from the R/R to the - post on the battery, and do the same thing for the solenoid. You might even discover the suspect old bad solenoid is still good...:-D
 
pain in the a$$ but...

pain in the a$$ but...

Well done on the starter fix..back to new condition.

Only other advice I'd been given is to go thru and check all your ground connections. There were several on mine and I guess from vibration some of the bolts holding the grounds can come loose.

I followed the 'power'....

put a twist-tie on my clutch to free up a hand, measured voltage at battery, pushed start button and measured voltage going into the starter (checks to see if solinoid is working or not)....

I didn't go beyond there as my prob was dirty starter (whew!)
 
Final Update

Final Update

First a sincere thank you to every one of you who assisted me and guided me through this issue, your help and advice resolved this situation (can't really say problem because it was actually several).

The bike is starting and running great now. Here's what happened. The starter was not shorted out, but it was non-functional due to the positive brush being shot. I did experience one issue that I was told is not uncommon in these starters as they age. Several of the magnets came loose from the body and caused an internal calamity when I had re-assembled everything. I was fortunate enough that the alternator/starter shop close by my house by pure chance had an old body from a different starter but was dimensionally identical in the center part that houses the magnets. He rebuilt it for me for $50.

So I know that the starter was bad. Now for the solenoid. I now suspect that the problems I had after rebuilding the starter and installing the new F496 solenoid was in fact the bullet connection in the wire from the solenoid connection to the harness (ignition, starter button, etc.). Once I cut that connector off and replaced it with a weather-proof spade connector, everything was fine.

By the way, for those of you who may use the Wells F496 in the future, the positive post is the top one with the mounting bracket on your left, the starter cable is the bottom, and the terminal connection (yellow/black wire) is the "I" terminal (top one on the right). The "S" terminal is left unconnected (does not require ground). The reason I say this is the note that comes with the F496 says to use the "S" and not the "I" terminal, but that may apply to cars?).

So, to make a long story short, rebuilt a bad starter, put in a new solenoid, and eliminated the poor bullet connector, and all is well. In summary, now I no longer know that the original solenoid was bad because of the bad bullet connector. But I do know the new solenoid is good, so I'm letting that sleeping dog lay undisturbed.

Finally, after a thorough carb cleaning with new o-rings/gaskets/pilot screws with only a bench-synch, nit-picky valve clearence job (nominal .051mm) with snapped cam cover bolts, and starter adventure, the GS650 starts great, runs strong, and pulls like a mustang.

Hey, it only took me two months :shock: :confused: :-s \\:D/ .

Thanks and kudos to all of you who helped me through all three adventures. I have learned alot...

Best regards,
Norseman
 
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