Kickstart-only, starter delete problems - oil leak - base o-ring? (+headlight wiring)

[Chuck78]

On my 1st test ride/ring break-in of the 920cc GS750 8V build, 12 minutes in as accelerated hard onto the highway entrance ramp, I find the back end breaking loose and squirming all over the road. I didn't expect that from a 30mph roll on despite the beastly engine build. I look back and see an oil trail behind me...

I feared that there was an imperfection in the block where the egg shaped o-ring seals the oil pressure passage, but after some reading, I now am hoping that it is just that a lot of oil is splashing around out of the stator cover and coming through the starter nose hole that I left wide open due to leaving the starter motor out for weight savings. I just read many posts of people finding oil leaking out of the "mystery hole" that drains rain water etc out of the starter cavity, and most point to the starter nose o-ring leaking oil back in there and letting it run out of the hole under the engine.

I also noted that on all three of my engines here, I have no grommet or anything sealing the stator wires where they come through the stator area of the crankcase into the starter area, nor is there a grommet where these wires and the oil pressure light wire exits the starter housing, but there is a grommet where the oil pressure switch wire enters the housing... Seems as if I need to degrease and install some RTV at the least, or dig through some 550 parts bins and see if that stuff fits the 750.


My big question is - does the oil really get THAT agitated and slung way up to the top of that cavity that I would have a heavy dripping coming off of the engine from having no starter plugging that hole? My rear tire was soaked. How did the GS400X manage? It was the barebones model with no starter motor, kickstart only, drum front brake, bare essentials. I'll have to see if I can dig up any fiches that are specific for that model only, and not the electric version. Maybe I can find a rubber plug that fits that hole. Next oil change I may drill and tap the crankcase bolt a plate and gasket over that hole if all else fails. Crossing my fingers that it is not the cylinder base o-ring seal on this new engine. There was a little oil sitting on top of the crankcase, but most of it was just pouring out from underneath, nonstop drips.

 

[Chuck78]

FYI electrical tip on starter delete kickstart-only mods

FYI electrical tip on starter delete kickstart-only mods

Also on an electrical side-note for kickstart-only builds... I swapped an LED H4 headlight replacement unit in at the same time, and no headlights! Turns out that as I noticed on many bikes, when cranking the starter, the headlight and marker lights all go out to save electricity for the starter. I thought this must be some relay setup that my bike (that I ALWAYS start with the lights off) did not have. Turns out the ground wire from the lighting is separate from the rest, and this weird "black w/white stripe" wire spliced to a short red wire tied onto the load side of the starter relay was the headlight ground wire. The headlight used the path through the starter motor to ground as it's sole source of ground apparently, as everything worked great after that. When the starter relay would engage, it would basically send 12V+ backfed on the ground to the lights, and it would disable the lights when cranking the starter. Interesting! As soon as I grounded that wire to the chassis and battery, headlights worked. Now when I get time (like next year, the way it;s going), I can remove the starter relay and replace it with a nice fuse block, as it is just there acting as a junction/distribution block for the battery and charging system, with a few inline fuses I added exiting it.

While I'm at it, I should also point out that if you run an electronic ignition, ESPECIALLY a Dyna or aftermarket, you can't really pull off a full battery delete - as my research tells me that the Dyna-S and Dyna-2000 take way too much electricity to run for even a massive 4-cylinder-handling 40,000uF battery eliminator capacitor to be able to supply. You are best sticking with points, as they are all manual, no modules to power up to control the ignition - all the voltage goes to the spark. The Kawasaki electrical guru guy Lou aka LoudGPZ/LoudHVX came up with some simple circuits to run a pair of Chevy Cavalier HEI ignition modules that draw far less power than a Dyna, and these may be a good option if you want to try for a battery and starter delete and run a 22,000uF (2 cyl) or 40,000-60,000uF (30+ vdc rated, up to 100 to be safe) battery delete capacitor.

 

[Steve]

I now am hoping that it is just that a lot of oil is splashing around out of the stator cover and coming through the starter nose hole that I left wide open due to leaving the starter motor out for weight savings.

You will need to plug the hole or find some oil-resistant tires. :-\\\

Also on an electrical side-note for kickstart-only builds... I swapped an LED H4 headlight replacement unit in at the same time, and no headlights!

Actually, the two are not normally related, as you will see shortly.

Turns out that as I noticed on many bikes, when cranking the starter, the headlight and marker lights all go out to save electricity for the starter. I thought this must be some relay setup that my bike (that I ALWAYS start with the lights off) did not have.

Yes, it's a good idea, but not one that Suzuki implemented on the GS.

Turns out the ground wire from the lighting is separate from the rest, and this weird "black w/white stripe" wire spliced to a short red wire tied onto the load side of the starter relay was the headlight ground wire. The headlight used the path through the starter motor to ground as it's sole source of ground apparently, as everything worked great after that.

I have used the 'dead' terminal on the solenoid as a trigger for a relay to cut out the headlight, but I would not suggest using it as a ground.


.

 

[Chuck78]

Well alright then! My buddy's kz650 lights all cut out when cranking the starter, so I assumed this was the same, but that someone just spliced the ground wire. I do remember that the group of guys that I bought my bike from were into Kawasakis quite a lot, so maybe they just rewired this bike in the Kawasaki fashion to cut the lights out on startup. or possibly it was just some hack mod that was unrelated to Kawasaki's wiring methods.

 

[Chuck78]

I forgot that the grommet for the stator wire was in fact in position, but in a separate cavity inside of the stator cover. so despite seeing a wide open hole there, that cavity is in fact sealed off. The giant gaping hole where the starter was hopefully is my problem. I have a few plugs around here, hopefully I can work something out.

all of the literature for the GS400X from 1976 through 1978 notes that it is a drum brake only front end, and is an economy model with the gear indicator and electric start both deleted. Somehow in the fiches, those models still show a starter clutch and electric starter motor.no help there answering my questions.

I am very happy to report easy kick starting thus far, although with new intake boots (I had no idea how badly these were needed, as mine just now started showing cracks, but haven't been apparently causing problems for years!) made a world of difference in the pilot fuel screw requirements... 1-1/8 turn out and 2 on the air screws was so rich that the choke did no good at all when I realized that I had forgotten to turn the choke on after it's maiden start on the 2nd kick...

 

[Chuck78]

oil leak looking confirmed, ring seating and carb jetting

oil leak looking confirmed, ring seating and carb jetting

Alright, back from second break-in ride since the first got cut short to less than 10 miles. I cleaned the engine, sprayed baby powder everywhere that was suspect if not caused by the starter hole being open, and shoved a rag into the starter hole with the cover off. I made it to the highway entrance with no oil leaking. After nonstop accel and decel on the highway for a while, I started pushing it over 7000rpm and soon 7500 rpm after 35 miles total break-in. Probably hit 8200+ at one point. Wow did it pull great on the highway at 3/4 to full throttle at that rpm! Mostly highway cruising in 4th gear to keep the rev's up and give it more of a heavy load on decel.


Once I started to really get the rev's up, I noticed a slight bit of oil on my boot. After going at it for a bit and getting to my turn-around point, I noticed quite a lot of oil again but noticed it was welling up in the starter area, and the rag was totally soaked. I suspect this is where the oil was coming from. The beginning of the ride showed zero oil seepage on the baby powder at the base o-ring, THANKFULLY!

Bike is running pretty darn rich, but at this point I wanted to be on the safe side until after I got a chance to do some really good break-in miles. Now I think I am at an okay point to chop a hole in the V&H midpipe/muffler and weld in that O2 bung and make a handlebar mount for the gauge and an on-off switch. I think swapping down to 117.5 mains would be good. Not sure in the needle, in the middle spot now, and definitely not right. I will be doing a compression test in a few now that the bike has cooled off a bit. I was reading 270 degrees Fahrenheit less than a minute after I pulled in from a mid throttle 3 second accel and then kill switch throttle chop into the driveway. Plugs looked rich, but I was afraid to go to needle position 2 (from top) for starters to be on the safe side.

 

[tkent02]

Bring the starter to any machine shop and have them turn a plug the same diameter, with a "head" on it so it can't fall in. Put an O ring groove on it just like the starter has. Might need something to keep it from falling out....

 

[Chuck78]

my machinist friend is out of town this week, but I just had sketched up something for him to turn on a lathe for me when he gets back. In the meantime, I made a makeshift plug out of an air conditioner compressor vibration isolator mount and some washers and a long bolt.

I almost got so lucky as to have a harbor Freight bearing race driver set nearly the exact description that I needed, if they only made one size smaller than this kit has.

 

[Grimly]

Starter hole plug

http://www.gszone.biz/starterplates.html

 

[Chuck78]

Starter hole plug

http://www.gszone.biz/starterplates.html

well, it's a nice piece! I had no idea that existed, but since race bikes delete their charging system and starter, of course someone would make 1 of those! the question now is, is that the right size for a gs750 8 valve engine? APE or GSbizzone is closed now, I was hoping they were on the west coast, but I will call them in the morning. the vented model in the picture looks to be a lot deeper than 12 mm, as that is the thickness of the 750 crankcase at the starter nose, and the hole is 30mm diameter.