Lost my brakes in the rain

[Crankthat]

 

[Guest]

Very interesting. It's got to be an age and experience thing, not a subject for argument. All brakes at that time would fade when wet. The disk brakes were better than the drum and shoe brakes but everyone knew to apply partial brakes and hold them to dry them out periodically in the rain back in the day. It was second nature, so some people might not even remember they do it if they are good drivers. The comparison between then and now is night and day. The old GS brakes with stainless steel brake lines and a proper rebuilt are not bad but they will still fade when wet and have to be dried out periodically in the rain or you could be headed for trouble. Drivers who grew up with modern brakes wouldn't know this and could easily get a shocking wake up call. I still do this even in my RX8 that has excellent brakes. Old habits die hard.

 

[Guest]

http://books.google.ie/books?id=f7D...torcycle brake performance in the wet&f=false

If my motorcycle took as far to stop as this article reports, I would also complain loudly. But I've never needed anything like those wet stopping distances. Perhaps some UK specific regulation required motorcycle manufacturers to use different brake pads than Suzuki shipped to North America.

The longest stopping vehicle I ever had was a bicycle using caliper brakes, on chrome plated steel rims. Even that didn't take as much distance in the wet to stop as the study showed for motorcycles.. .

 

[tkent02]

I didn't read the article, five times as long? Obviously that's not true. That's like riding on snow or ice, but it's the tire's lack of traction limiting, not the brakes. Never had a problem getting much more braking than the tires could handle in rain, the tires would slip and skid if you over did it on the brakes but the brakes themselves always worked fine.

Where do these people dig up this junk? And who in their right mind would believe it?

 

[bccap]

Neither of my bikes are from the 70's. The front brakes on my 83 work just fine in all conditions. The rear sucks but it has thirty year old pads in it. The 88 has better brakes and the rear will lock up. I live in a rain forest region so they have spent some time in the rain......

 

[tkent02]

It rains in Vancouver?

 

[bccap]

It used to but then we took away the Freedom of Weather. A lot of plants have been complaining......

 

[earlfor]

My best guess is the brakes failed because they had leaked fluid, which had been absorbed into the pads, and that combined with water from the rain and pressure from applying the brakes, created a friction free barrier between the pad and disk. Find and fix the leak and replace the pads and things should be fine. I have ridden all my GS's in heavy rain for extended time and once for nearly 100 miles through a hurricane with 60+mph horizontal rain and flooded roads and the brakes still worked.

 

[Flyboy]

Of course they work, wet or dry, anyone who knows how to ride, knows that.
As Tom said, you will lock up a tire long before you loose brakes.
Suzuki made cr@p brakes, phaaaaaa, never heard such drivel in all my life.

You think it only rains in Ireland?
Most of us survived, it wasn't any big deal.

Yeah, now I am wondering just what exactly that cold, wet stuff is that comes out of our clouds, got me worried now.

 

[earlfor]

Of course they work, wet or dry, anyone who knows how to ride, knows that.
As Tom said, you will lock up a tire long before you loose brakes.
Suzuki made cr@p brakes, phaaaaaa, never heard such drivel in all my life.


Yeah, now I am wondering just what exactly that cold, wet stuff is that comes out of our clouds, got me worried now.

The problem likely is that Brit cars leak oil all over everything and when it rains, the roads turn into a grease pit.

 

[tkent02]

Even so, that would effect the tires more than the brakes.

It's just pure BS, like we all said.

 

[Dj66]

You people are amazing! Almost like climate change deniers. Even when presented with documentation you just cant admit that your wonderful old Suzuki's ever had any weak points. Have you heard about the rose colored glasses phenomenon? Yes, i am sure that contaminated pads were a factor in the OP'S situation and hell yes he should go thru those brakes,but if they were so"adequate" to begin with then why all the fuss about modifying them (twinpot upgrade)? Don't worry, it wasn't just Suzuki, I remember riding my fathers early Goldwing and even that was sketchy when wet! Maybe you are all such excellent omnipotent riders that you didn't notice,but the rest of us unwashed sure did!

 

[tkent02]

You people are amazing! Almost like climate change deniers. Even when presented with documentation you just cant admit that your wonderful old Suzuki's ever had any weak points.

No one ever said they weren't weak, no one said they are adequate with todays' tire technology. They are not. I always install better brakes when I get an early GS, have been doing so for decades.

But they were not death traps, they didn't take five times as long to stop in wet as in dry, they didn't have any of these problems this guy is crying about. Squeeze the lever, soon enough you start slowing down, wet or dry not really any difference except the tire's traction isn't very good on wet pavement. They don't grab, they don't lock, they just worked. If anyone's brakes are doing any of these things, they should be fixed immediately, that is not normal.

That documentation was a bunch of BS, it simply isn't true.
I don't know who wrote it or why, but it just isn't right.

 

[Rob S.]

Maybe you are all such excellent omnipotent riders that you didn't notice,but the rest of us unwashed sure did!

Hey! I took a bath last night! Every Saturday night come hell or high water, I take a bath and brush my teeth, even if I don't need it.

 

[tkent02]

I even sent an hour googling it. Couldn't find any reference to GS brakes sucking in rain. Found one article about the disc brakes on the GT 550, which took a little while to come on, but it went on to say that's just how disc brakes on all bikes were, before the mid 70s.

Disc brakes on cars were the same way at first.

 

[Flyboy]

I even sent an hour googling it. Couldn't find any reference to GS brakes sucking in rain. Found one article about the disc brakes on the GT 550, which took a little while to come on, but it went on to say that's just how disc brakes on all bikes were, before the mid 70s.

Disc brakes on cars were the same way at first.

Correct, because of the wiping effect of the pads displacing the water, this takes all of about half a second before the brakes are working as normal.
Hardly a death trap.

If you are riding your street bike on a public road, in the rain, in such a way that half a second of braking is critical, then yes, you are a tosser and riding like a tw@t and should not be allowed in public unsupervised.

Amazing how they used to throw those self same bikes with those self same brakes around race tracks on the ragged edge all over the world in the pouring rain and did quite alright.

 

[Rob S.]

You people are amazing! Almost like climate change deniers. Even when presented with documentation...

Hey! For your information, fully one tenth of one percent of all scientists around the world have stated that 'climate change', if it does exist at all, is not man-made.

In your face!

 

[Guest]

Correct, because of the wiping effect of the pads displacing the water, this takes all of about half a second before the brakes are working as normal.
Hardly a death trap.

If you are riding your street bike on a public road, in the rain, in such a way that half a second of braking is critical, then yes, you are a tosser and riding like a tw@t and should not be allowed in public unsupervised.

Amazing how they used to throw those self same bikes with those self same brakes around race tracks on the ragged edge all over the world in the pouring rain and did quite alright.

Given all of the idiot drivers on the road, a half second can be the difference between an accident & a close call.
Its also worth remembering that many of those idiot car drivers have antilock brakes & can stop quite quickly in the rain despite being totally clueless.

There is even some evidence that LED stop lights reduce accidents, and LED stop lights are only about 140 milliseconds faster than conventional incandescent bulbs.

 

[Brendan W]

Maybe the OP could correct me on this one but he appears to be using Caltric resin pads ( up to 30-50% metal ??) on the front and sintered on the rear. I note that the rear retained effectiveness in the incident. I mistakenly thought organic pads were banned but now find that not only are they still being sold but are recommended for 'show bikes' and 'leisure' use by some vendors. I further note that it was the first time the bike had been ridden in the rain and that the brakes returned to normal function when dried out - in my humble opinion this is not consistant with oil contamination. A pad once contaminated is generally considered toast.
If people wish they can discount the linked Transport Research Laboratory tests as performed by the Area 51 guys on the grassy knoll but if it were my neck I would seriously consider sintered pads for the front....... after that pre-existing leak was fixed.

 

[Guest]

Someone wrote that anti-lock braking produces shorter stopping distances in the rain. It does not. ABS maintains steering control. Integrated with traction control, it helps to keep the car under control under circumstances where it might otherwise spin out. If stopping distance is shorter with ABS, it is because the driver presses harder on the brake pedal, knowing that he can apply full braking force with a lower chance of losing directional control.

I didn't read the article, five times as long? ...

"The organic pads were extremely variable in their performance. The stopping distance, at a speed of 40 km/h, varied between 67 m and 433 m...some of the organic brake pads become waterlogged, and only after the water has been squeezed out of the pad does the brake begin to bite."
​

Translating this into the English units that us 'mercans refuse to drop

"The organic pads were extremely variable in their performance. The stopping distance, at a speed of 25 mph, varied between 220 ft and 1420 ft...some of the organic brake pads become waterlogged, and only after the water has been squeezed out of the pad does the brake begin to bite."
​

When I wrote 'five times as long', I was using the shorter distance. The longer distance is more than a quarter mile. On a flat, smooth road, the motorcycle probably won't coast for a quarter starting from 25 mph. A motorcycle would stop much shorter than that if the pad were replaced with waterlogged wood.

The article doesn't merit being taken seriously.

You people are amazing! Almost like climate change deniers. Even when presented with documentation you just cant admit that your wonderful old Suzuki's ever had any weak points. ...

Some people believe The Onion.

Given all of the idiot drivers on the road, a half second can be the difference between an accident & a close call. Its also worth remembering that many of those idiot car drivers have antilock brakes & can stop quite quickly in the rain despite being totally clueless.....

If a half second makes a difference, someone is following too closely.

I've been carpooling 58 miles to work. When she drives, she creeps up to a 0.5 second - 1 second following distance. When I drive, I follow behind by 3 to 20 seconds, more in the rain. Total trip time is maybe two minutes longer when I drive.

If traffic is so heavy that 0.5 seconds difference in stopping time is the difference between a crash and no crash, I wouldn't ride on a motorcycle, and would avoid that route in a car.

.... I mistakenly thought organic pads were banned but now find that not only are they still being sold but are recommended for 'show bikes' and 'leisure' use by some vendors. I further note that it was the first time the bike had been ridden in the rain and that the brakes returned to normal function when dried out - in my humble opinion this is not consistant with oil contamination. A pad once contaminated is generally considered toast...

What exactly were the article's "organic" pads? The introduction to the article refers to "common asbestos brake pads", as if the two were the same. Asbestos was gradually removed from brake pads in the late 70s and early 80s. Asbestos itself is inorganic. The pad contains many materials, many of which are organic (made from carbon compounds). Perhaps the authors did not test OE brake pads, but some early non-asbestos organic replacement pads, before they were ready for street use.