Low charge rate with lights on

[suzukizone]

1981 GS850G 70,000+ miles
Riding the other day on hiway, 60-65 mph when I saw my Kuryakan LED charge indicator * was in the yellow. Normally shows 1 or 2 green lights.

I have a cut off switch for headlight so flicked it off & was instantly in double green. Left light off for a few miles, turned it back on & stayed in single green for a bit until RPMs dropped at light, went into yellow & couldn't get green until I turned off headlight again. This went on all day.

Got home & checked battery voltage. 13v + sitting with engine off.

Ran engine to test voltage at battery. With headlight off went up to 14.4 as I approached 5k rpm. With headlight on only got to a bit over 13v+ at same rpm.


Yellow on this Kuryakan LED thing seems to be in the mid to hi 12v range with green kicking in about 13.25v.


Seems to be something to do with the lighting coil (running a 60/55w halogen bulb) Most of my running lights are LED except the Windjammer running bulbs which are 1157 standards.

Nothing was "done" as far as electrical changes although about 3 weeks prev I installed new AGM Yuasa sealed battery. No probs when I did that till the other day when this happened.

I have not tested the voltage output at the 3 stator leads that go to the RR which is a Honda CBR900 unit I put in years ago.

(Motorcycle Superstore shows this item under the name [h=1] LED BATTERY GAUGE[/h]
If you aren't familiar with it.)

ALso is it harmful to run w/o headlight? Heard it could burn up the stator.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,

DH

 

[posplayr]

I suspect your stator is going out. The charging system will not meet the demand of the driving light indicates underperforming stator. Probably cooked from shunt r/r.
I assume you have a shunt r/r in which case it is bad to run without the lights assuming you have changed the headlamp loop but you did not explain.

 

[suzukizone]

Hi, Thanks posplayr!!!
1. Not sure what is shunt r/r. I have an "Electrolux" stator (can't remember exact name but they used to sponsor this forum) about 8-10 years old. Had their R/R but it went up & I replaced it with a Honda CB900 (I believe) based on recommends from GS members on this site.

2. I only use the on/off switch when working on the bike to avoid draining battery when key is on.

3. I plan to get reading from the 3 stator coils soon as I get a break as now have the whole exhaust system off car & they sent the wrong parts, etc. but will get to it in a day or two. I know I have details on testing the R/R & will get to that too. Now that we have a spell of nice weather, this kicks in. I was hoping to ride while the car was laid up. :upset:

4. The headlight circuit was hooked up to the Windjammer when I bought the bike in 2002. I have added a Bosch relay to deliver fuller voltage to the filaments but that hookup has been on at least 10 years.

I am not much of a tech head so a lot of this is over my head. Hope this additional info clarifies what was not as clear.

Have sold a lot of organs to cover car & bike expenses lately but I do have some healthy looking neighbors around here. Perhaps they can spare me some organic capital if I do need the stator.

Thanks again,

DH

 

[wymple]

I don't have a problem with the voltages you posted. Your battery stayed up just fine, did it not? If I'm over 13 volts at any speed I'll worry about it later, as long as my riding isn't that far from home. I've been riding below 14 volts for 3 years, now, this year will make 4. My battery stays up just fine.

 

[posplayr]

I don't have a problem with the voltages you posted. Your battery stayed up just fine, did it not? If I'm over 13 volts at any speed I'll worry about it later, as long as my riding isn't that far from home. I've been riding below 14 volts for 3 years, now, this year will make 4. My battery stays up just fine.

There is more to diagnosis that just looking at single voltage reading in isolation. While the absolute voltages are very important, the Quick Test also operates on the comparison of voltages at different RPMs. Anything under 14V is a problem brewing even if you have gone for some time.

While we can not be exactly sure how low the voltages were going when the Yellow indicators came on, it is clearly below 14V and possibly below 13V. You might think this is OK and perhaps the bike will run for a bit more, but the fact that the bike achieves full 14V+ charging with the headlamp turned off is a clear sing of under production of the stator which 99% of the time is due to a burnt insulation and reduced numbers of winding.

For Suzukizone

It is almost not worth doing any further tests although you might find traces of something during the Revised Phase B leg to ground tests. You are probably catching this early and sooner of later the tests will be more definitive even if Phase B tests do not yield anything immediately.

 

[Guest]

I have an "Electrolux" stator (can't remember exact name but they used to sponsor this forum) ...

And, like other "Electrolux" products, it sucks.

The name is either Electrex or Electrosport.

Actually, the Electrosport stator itself is not a problem, but a shunt R/R can kill it in a reasonably short time. A newer SERIES R/R will keep just about any stator going for quite a while, so it's time to invest. The current favorite is the Shindengen SH775, which is found on many Polaris ATVs. Some members have found them on eBay for about $45 or you can spring for a new one for about $70.

 

[geol]

Wait a minute here! Electrolux makes decent vacuum cleaners and kitchen appliances :-\\\

First thing to do is check voltages our of your stator regardless of brand. Your headlight wattages sound pretty much what they should be so unless you have a wiring issue, the stator is most likely culprit. If the stator isn't putting out the number of volts AC that is specified, the reg/rec may be killing it as has been suggested.

 

[wymple]

If he wants to start dumping money into an 81 850 with 70K on it, (and most likely old wiring problems), go for it. Have the stator wiring and plugins been cleaned up, grounds properly secured? Could probably pick up a volt just doing that. When he gets it all done these guys will tell him the whole bike is worth 800-1000. If it's mine, I just ride it, and will fix it only if I have to, or intend to keep it long term because it's in excellent form. I'm not afraid to dump coin into a bike, but how long will he actually keep a 70K bike? Either way, it's his money.

 

[Gorminrider]

I wonder if the "headlight loop" is disabled...Might gain half a volt there...?
I'm running 2 out of 4 bikes that fail "GSR Volltage Specs" without any issue for 2 years, but both have stators that are "under-wound". Maybe the Electrex is "underwound" also?

and since the battery is new and different perhaps it has an effect...?

 

[posplayr]

If he wants to start dumping money into an 81 850 with 70K on it, (and most likely old wiring problems), go for it. Have the stator wiring and plugins been cleaned up, grounds properly secured? Could probably pick up a volt just doing that. When he gets it all done these guys will tell him the whole bike is worth 800-1000. If it's mine, I just ride it, and will fix it only if I have to, or intend to keep it long term because it's in excellent form. I'm not afraid to dump coin into a bike, but how long will he actually keep a 70K bike? Either way, it's his money.

I'm sure the OP is grateful that you clarified that your recommendations are based largely on your "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy of financial management. However I would suggest that there are many GS owners that would prefer to be able to arrive at their destination without having to trailer or otherwise transport a dead motorcycle that is stuck on the side of the road.

I do agree that the basic preventative maintenance you describe (cleaning and wiring modifications) is the first order of business (which he seems to have done at some point) however the stator is indicating signs of stress.

 

[posplayr]

I wonder if the "headlight loop" is disabled...Might gain half a volt there...?
I'm running 2 out of 4 bikes that fail "GSR Volltage Specs" without any issue for 2 years, but both have stators that are "under-wound". Maybe the Electrex is "underwound" also?

Would you be so kind as to more clearly specify what measurements/tests you think are erroneous or otherwise without merit?

 

[posplayr]

The OP's links to his battery monitor do not work so I looked for what I'm assuming he is using.

http://www.kuryakyn.com/products/872/led-battery-gauge

 

[geol]

I'm sure the OP is grateful that you clarified that your recommendations are based largely on your "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy of financial management. However I would suggest that there are many GS owners that would prefer to be able to arrive at their destination without having to trailer or otherwise transport a dead motorcycle that is stuck on the side of the road.

I do agree that the basic preventative maintenance you describe (cleaning and wiring modifications) is the first order of business (which he seems to have done at some point) however the stator is indicating signs of stress.

When I make a suggestion, consider that I want to make something 100 percent right. Most any vintage bike is never really worth the amount put into it plus labor and I just want anything I ride to be 100 percent. Period. Folks can make their own minds up as to whether a bike is worth the time and money spent.

 

[geol]

The OP's links to his battery monitor do not work so I looked for what I'm assuming he is using.

http://www.kuryakyn.com/products/872/led-battery-gauge

A few years ago, I owned a GL1500 trike and the GL1500 has the reg/rec integrated into the generator. This bike model had a history of failure in that area and if either the generator or reg/rec failed, since they are integrated you get to spend some serious money for a replacement. Had one fail on me FAR from home and had to swap the bad one out for a "used" one (all that was available over 1000 miles from home) in a parking lot of a fast food place. When I got home, I bought one of those KuryAkyn LED gauges to keep an eye on the health of my charging system. Of course, once you put a gauge on a bike, you will never have another issue with the thing.

 

[posplayr]

When I make a suggestion, consider that I want to make something 100 percent right. Most any vintage bike is never really worth the amount put into it plus labor and I just want anything I ride to be 100 percent. Period. Folks can make their own minds up as to whether a bike is worth the time and money spent.

Agree there is no such thing as one size fits all, but in the industry there are standards and there are best practices. In the building industry there are building codes mandated by law which is even more strict. What I would hope we try to do here at the GSR especially with respect to various subsystems of the motorcycle is to establish a "best practice" with the understanding that people will need to or want to tailor these to their particular situation.

I'll use carburetion as an example. The GSR has established a "best practice" to strip and dip carbs to clean out old gunk and probably as much to make sure that the carbs have not been fiddled with by a hasty PO. As much as anything else, this establishes a baseline from which to then attempt to diagnose running issues where it maybe hard to tell if something is electrical, carburetion or valves?

If you know what you are doing, you probably do not need to completely strip and dip your carbs especially if it has been done in the not too distant past. On my 1100 for example If I had to totally break down the carbs when the carbs have dried out plugging the pilot jest it would be too much to deal with. But then I know how to remove the crabs and clean those jets.

On the other hand the notion that the GSR website has what would be considered a "best practice" for electrical systems is somewhat flawed in that there is probably too much information on the subject sometimes conflicting and sometime just plain wrong. Just because it is written here does not mean it is so. Peer review is one of the ways that we can "vet" the information posted, although it may seem as simply being argumentative.

In any event my message to some of the posters to this thread is that taking broad swipes at GSR content is not helpful unless there is something specific to offer. Wimple provided a better foundation to his comments although they do run counter to the notion of a "best practice".

 

[Rob S.]

...I know how to remove the crabs and clean...

We've all been there.

 

[Gorminrider]

Would you be so kind as to more clearly specify what measurements/tests you think are erroneous or otherwise without merit?

well, where to start, since you ask? ....and I wouldn't say "without merit" or "erroneous" given my assumption that somebody must have get these readings- just not me. I haven't discerned any reason why I need these same readings either. But that said, the trend is ok.
Quick Test Steps:

1.) key off................Normal 12.7 volts-12.9 volts I dont have any bike that does this. 12.5+ is good to go on a resting wet battery ,IMO.

2.) key on (but not cranking with lights for 10 sec).....Normal 12.2-12.5 volts uh,uh. I think Not on any bike I have, given this says headlamp and tail light are ON for 10 seconds . Perhaps the average temperature in Canada has an effect on this, but I don't have any 12-14 ah batterries that can display so near what my "resting voltage" is when they have 40+ watts load. But the batteries down there must be different, apparently Always reading 2-4 tenths higher to start.

3.) at idle (1500 rpm).....12.6volts - 13.2volts mmm. without an exact rpm match(mine is lower on 3/4) I still will offer....= 14.2 or more on 2/4 bikes...the other 2/4 bikes do show voltage very similar to what is shown 12.6-13.2) even at lower rpm and even with headlamp on. Brakelight and turn signals will lower vdc on these though. On the 400, displayed voltage can be easily be less than 12.0 at a stoplight with signals and brakelight on. But my rpm is less too.

4.) at 2500 rpm 13.5 -14.0 volts "I dunno". No consequence to me. I never bother specifically and don't ride at this rpm at all.

5.) at 5000 rpm.....14.0 -15.0 volts yes on 2/4 ... but say, 13.5 to 13.8 on the other two with headlamp( lo beam) and tailight on.

6.) key off.....slightly higher than measurements # 1 (12.8-13.0 v) ....for a short while ...not something I worry about unless it's below the original "key-off" =12.5+

 

[suzukizone]

Yes, that IS the one. Sorry about faulty linx.

DH

 

[suzukizone]

Wow been away a day or two. Way too many responses to thank all of you individually so shout out to one & all. Am printing up all this & try to head out to the shed to carefully do all tests & connector maintenance that I can.

One question still,....What The Hey is a "SHUNT" R/R & is there a way to tell if I have one or not??? I will check my notes back to when I installed it years back. I would have noted which Honda model & year it was from.

Thanks again. I'll be back. (with non-Austrian accent of course.

DH

 

[suzukizone]

If he wants to start dumping money into an 81 850 with 70K on it, (and most likely old wiring problems), go for it. Have the stator wiring and plugins been cleaned up, grounds properly secured? Could probably pick up a volt just doing that. When he gets it all done these guys will tell him the whole bike is worth 800-1000. If it's mine, I just ride it, and will fix it only if I have to, or intend to keep it long term because it's in excellent form. I'm not afraid to dump coin into a bike, but how long will he actually keep a 70K bike? Either way, it's his money.

I understand your point, but to me bike is worth about 50 grand. To you, the bike would look like crap, not clean, weird **** hanging off, oil leaks, the world's strangest fixes, scraps, scratches & scars. But every time I walk up to Roadkill, I always say to myself,.."Man what a beautiful bike!." Just because Donald Trump feels the need to keep trading in spouses every few years for a newer model, don't mean that some of us love our old babes to death. Not to be offensive, but there are many kinds of beauty and value. If not would wart hogs be able to reproduce with out poking their eyes out first? Wow, how zen is that?

BTW, it is possible that Roadkill has up to 170k as she looked like **** when I got her used with 20k on the speedo but many many signs that 20k might have been a whole lot more. She has broken so many speedo cables, speedo drives and speedos that I know use a SIGMA bike speedo & love it.

DH