More electrical problems (starter relay wiring?)

[posplayr]

He has done an outstanding job of describing these systems to anyone with a very basic working knowledge of simple electrical systems.
If you don't have this knowledge, spend an hour in a library.
It's pretty easy stuff.

Thanks for the endorsement. In high school I was considered a "jock" "gear head". I flunked Algebra twice (9th grade and my senior year). When I took a Military aptitude test that they used to give annually in HS in CA at least. I scored high. My guidance counselor said I looked to be suited to be an engineer and in particular an electrical engineer. At the time my first thought sitting in her office was "engineer" ? "What run a train"?

Well to not make this not too long, I did enroll in college but with my "gear head" background thought I would be a mechanical engineer because I did not know what that aptitude test saw, because I did not know squat about electricity.

In engineering curriculums 80-90% of all of the first 2 years are the same independent of your specific major (electrical, chemical, mechanical....etc). So I'm sitting in a 1st semester of my second year of physics class and the professor gives the lecture on basic electricity ; essentially the class scope was V=IR.

After class I though, wow that was not so hard; I'll just change my major to "Electrical Engineering". And I did. . That was about spring of 1977.

 

[tkent02]

Thanks for the endorsement. In high school I was considered a "jock" "gear head". I flunked Algebra twice (9th grade and my senior year). When I took a Military aptitude test that they used to give annually in HS in CA at least. I scored high. My guidance counselor said I looked to be suited to be an engineer and in particular an electrical engineer. At the time my first thought sitting in her office was "engineer" ? "What run a train"?

Well to not make this not too long, I did enroll in college but with my "gear head" background thought I would be a mechanical engineer because I did not know what that aptitude test saw, because I did not know squat about electricity.

In engineering curriculums 80-90% of all of the first 2 years are the same independent of your specific major (electrical, chemical, mechanical....etc). So I'm sitting in a 1st semester of my second year of physics class and the professor gives the lecture on basic electricity ; essentially the class scope was V=IR.

After class I though, wow that was not so hard; I'll just change my major to "Electrical Engineering". And I did. . That was about spring of 1977.

I think one of the biggest failings in public schools is the lack of any electrical training, I spent an entire quarter in high school getting to an extremely basic knowledge, the Navy Basic Electricity school was way past that point by lunch time on the first day. The high school class was an elective, only offered one period, with no advanced classes available at all. Only a very few geek types even signed up.

It ought to be started in Kindergarten.

 

[posplayr]

Wiki is not really a credible source for info. in that anyone can go into it and make edits. It's a negligible electronic source of "Cliff Notes", but changes everyday that someone wanders in and edits the info.. The Pirsig book on "Zen and the Art..." developed a sort of cult following as it's lessons are applicable in every corner of life. However, they are particularly applicable and easily examplified within motorcycle maintenance, and the directions communications therein. It is a book about moving beyond Ego to find a higher Quality standard.

.

I take whatever I read with a grain of salt :-k; ironically I do not really take away anything different from your description as contrasted with the Wiki reference.

The book came about from the Author's experiences writing and editing Tech. manuals for products; he found that Tech. Manuals which came with a product, for the Consumer to use as a set of "directions", were generally indecipherable to all those but the Engineers who already knew what was being described. Therefore, the Tech. Manuals were relatively unusable for the average consumer-the Quality of the manual was extremely low as nothing was communicated or taught to the intended receivers; the Consumer.

Well this was written in the 70's probably based on manuals from the 60's. Things have certainly changes since then.

Personally, I cannot understand what you are saying 95% of the time, pertaining to the electrical stuff on these bikes, as you are using language which speaks to engineers who already know what you're talking about. Nothing personal.

If your real point here is to suggest that engineers only speak and write in terms that other engineers can understand I think I would have to disagree. Engineers do speak about technology and technology is often technical. But to suggest it is all the same and just more engineer speak is a bit of an old fashioned concept. That concept is about as old as the suggestion that engineers walk around wearing tape repaired horn rim glasses (e.g. anti-social) and pen pocket protectors (pragmatic to a fault) speak in a different language oblivious and to the determent of the rest of humanity (e.g. 60's era users manuals).

The language I try to use on this website does vary somewhat, but it is generally designed to use the least sophisticated technical concepts which provide the "essential understanding" of a technical aspect of motorcycles. The concept of "essential understanding" is that should form a foundation for further study from the many available sources. To this end I avoid analogies if possible, unless they are well accepted and documented ones (like the hydraulic pressure/flow and electrical voltage/current analogy).

To use an analogy, you might think of the extent of my willingness to "spoon feed" is to go so far as to put the spoon on the table rather than a knife and perhaps to provide one bite I won't continue to feed. But I also won't use a loosely interpreted analogy that will take you no where or worse provide a fundamental misperception (i.e. cuts like a knife).

The world has become far more sophisticated in the last 50 years and that is largely because of the sophistication of the engineering discipline. You need to look no further than the internet and people the likes of Bill gates and Larry Ellison to realize that.

Pos

 

[1982SZ]

My statement made was not a point to make, just a fact from my perception and Pirsig's; reading your writing did nothing to assit me in understanding what was going on in the system, or how to fix it, as the vocabulary used is not in layman's terms which I understand. That is not an ..." old fashioned concept." wherein professionals forget to dumb down the pro-speak, when instructing/teaching. I did not say engineers only talk shop-talk, but you seem to as far as I'm concerned which doesn't re-fire or light my Kat!! I did not ask to be spoon fed either, but you would surely like to think so, and rather enjoy that idea?

A book was written from a point of view before I graduated from High School in 1988, therefore it is based on old ideas/theories/technologies that have no bearing on my life today? What a convenient way to dismiss people who do not endorse me. Speaking of endorsements, I will withold any monetary contributions or patronizing the sponsors herein.

On second thought, that book sucks, do not read it or take the time to possibly enjoy it. That's the end of our sharing in this forum, from this computer. Good Day.

I take whatever I read with a grain of salt :-k; ironically I do not really take away anything different from your description as contrasted with the Wiki reference.




Well this was written in the 70's probably based on manuals from the 60's. Things have certainly changes since then.




If your real point here is to suggest that engineers only speak and write in terms that other engineers can understand I think I would have to disagree. Engineers do speak about technology and technology is often technical. But to suggest it is all the same and just more engineer speak is a bit of an old fashioned concept. Pos

 

[850 Combat]

you da man, steve!

that's all it was - a missing ground wire from the starter relay housing

interestingly, the starter relay worked fine for a while without the ground wire :?:

Suzuki didn't think it needed one.

 

[posplayr]

Suzuki didn't think it needed one.

Well that is correct, however the operative word is "think" and that they DID NOT do. The engineers that designed the R/R were well aware of the issues of shunt regulation(probably Nippon subcontractors) ; it is the Suzuki engineers that designed the harness that were asleep in the "sparks and magic" class. That point seems quite clear from the looking at the general design and model to model and year to year variation in the harness design.

V=IR applies to Suzuki's as well as all electronics.

 

[tkent02]

I will withold any monetary contributions or patronizing the sponsors herein.

On second thought, that book sucks, do not read it or take the time to possibly enjoy it. That's the end of our sharing in this forum, from this computer. Good Day.

Wow, he didn't last long.
Usually they hold out a little longer before the dramatic exit.

 

[doctorgonzo]

My electrical and electronics knowledge stops after a basic circuit and the concept of resistence. I missed it somewhere along the way. This coming from a senior software engineer who plays with millions of dollars of eletronis every day.

 

[tejasmud]

Hey, there are book forums out there.

But, he's right, book probably sucked, nothing to do with motorcycles.

All the language used in this thread, English of course, pertaining to electronics have definitions. Don't know them, look them up.

Left brain told me to write that. :lol:

Anyways,

I have just spent the last two weeks, 1-2 hours each day, going through a wiring harness, un-doing black/blue/yellow tape, replacing wires if needed, all new connectors, solder, dialetric grease, shrink tube, multimeter, 12v power source.

Some tosted stuff was observed from the original wiring, but....

Not too bad really. A Suzuki harness is pretty simple.

Now....

Don't know about any "ground loops," but ya know...

The sparks and smoke went into the wires without too much hassle.

And, not a relay one.



I agree on the grounding of things if the original wiring, Black with a white tracer, is used, old, and depleated. It would not hurt to have a back up on the charging system anyways.

 

[posplayr]

My statement made was not a point to make, just a fact from my perception and Pirsig's; reading your writing did nothing to assit me in understanding what was going on in the system, or how to fix it, as the vocabulary used is not in layman's terms which I understand. That is not an ..." old fashioned concept." wherein professionals forget to dumb down the pro-speak, when instructing/teaching. I did not say engineers only talk shop-talk, but you seem to as far as I'm concerned which doesn't re-fire or light my Kat!! I did not ask to be spoon fed either, but you would surely like to think so, and rather enjoy that idea?

A book was written from a point of view before I graduated from High School in 1988, therefore it is based on old ideas/theories/technologies that have no bearing on my life today? What a convenient way to dismiss people who do not endorse me. Speaking of endorsements, I will withold any monetary contributions or patronizing the sponsors herein.

On second thought, that book sucks, do not read it or take the time to possibly enjoy it. That's the end of our sharing in this forum, from this computer. Good Day.

1982SZ
While you are gone from the board (even if you don't come back) You should rethink some of your means of conversation. This thread is a clear example of inappropriate OT material. In this thread, you created a situation that virtually guaranteed that at least you if not others would walk away mad.

Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is clearly a multi faceted book. I won't even attempt to summarize it as I just found another book written by two other Phd's in philosophy to explain what Pirsig's book means. As I suspected there is a cult like following as a result of the apparent polarizing effect the book has. I really don't have any strong feeling about the book either way; I have never even read it. My comments were specific to the narrow scope of the comments you "seemed" to be making.

My statement made was not a point to make, just a fact from my perception and Pirsig's;

Do you see the contradiction in this statement? What part of "my perception" and "Pirsig's philosophical theory" (and much less your interpretation of that) is "FACT"?

Looking past the obvious contradictions is that you have aligned your belief system with your interpretation of Pirsig's work. Pirsig's work has become to a greater or less extent your "Bible" for life.

To get to the point, you booby trapped this thread and put yourself right in the direct line of fire. You invoked the Pirsig book to make your point, and then immediately see any contradiction of your view as not only that but also rejection of your's and Pirsig's belief system. You might have just as well been quoting scripture (i.e. the Bible) because that would have resulted in the same thing.

Initially I was sorry you went away mad. But now that I researched the book (I ordered an original hardback and a new paperback reprint from Amazon) as I have analyzed what happened, you should stay away until you develop a little more maturity and clearly stay off your flavor of religion in the open forums. 1982SZ (if you do come back) please refrain from this type of veiled philosophical dialog. Keep it in the OT section if at all.

Apologies to the other readers of this thread as this has gotten completely Off Topic and it is not my intent to propagate this thread to that end. Also apologies to PsyGuy who started the thread.

The simple point to point connections I described should solve your issues if the parts are good. If you clean those connections and then use some dialectic grease to keep the corrosion from coming back. :-\\\

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1119702&postcount=5

 

[Speedo]

Thanks guys, now I have a headache - BOTH sides of my brain hurt

1982SZ
Apologies to the other readers of this thread as this has gotten completely Off Topic and it is not my intent to propagate this thread to that end.

No apologies necessary to this tired-of-his-own-electrical-gremlins reader/poster just trying to do more "homework" on all this stuff on a Sunday morning, plotting his next electrical "move". Ok, thread got a bit heated, but non-the-less, very good stuff. Sometimes tangential thinking and/or discussion ends up being MORE productive in both learning and in solving difficult problems.

Carefully trying not to take sides here....I think that criticizing guys like POS, who have obviously spent HOURS of their time, with absolutely nothing to gain for themselves, in trying to help the rest of us electrical idiots out with our problems, shows a lack of respect (let alone the gratitude they deserve). So I want to say a big "Thank You Man". Seriously.

On the other hand, I do understand being a bit frustrated with technical terms and tough concepts, and want to make the point that not all of us non-electrical-cognoscenti are necessary duma$$es. To wit (re: prev POS thread comment), I got A's in all high school math and science classes, B's in engineering Calculus, and yet still flunked out of ChemE in college - what? you have to actually STUDY to pass those classes?? Yeah, you do - that much I did learn. Problem was total lack of interest, and that is my (hopefully gentle) point.

Some of us are only interested in getting the problem fixed and get back to simply riding and living, free of electrical worries. Option 1 of course would be to just pay a mechanic. But some, like me, are cheap, stubborn, and have toolage to give it a shot. So here we are and listening (believe me) to you guys. So please do not take offense or think we are dumb when, just like the PSYGUY/STEVE exchange, it goes like:
us:"Bike won't start"
you: "Check wire X, clean it"
us: "It worked! Thx"

We're pretty much done at that point. Problem solved, technical reasons/theories behind them no longer hold our interest. I hope you understand

Now, something I actually DO know something about (and is of great interest to me):

1982SZ
Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is clearly a multi faceted book. I won't even attempt to summarize it as I just found another book written by two other Phd's in philosophy to explain what Pirsig's book means. As I suspected there is a cult like following as a result of the apparent polarizing effect the book has. I really don't have any strong feeling about the book either way; I have never even read it.

Funny (how could you "have a strong feeling either way" if you haven't read it?). But you redeem yourself:

1982SZ
But now that I researched the book (I ordered an original hardback and a new paperback reprint from Amazon)

Enjoy. I think you will like it. BTW, there is quite a bit of actual technical motorcycle maintenance stuff in there. Format alternates chapters between real-world travels, motorcycle issues, etc and philosophical musings - maybe representing alternating left/right brain thinking? Also BTW on the whole technical writing thing and its apparent lack of "quality"...trying to define what "quality" actual means is what drove the main character nuts (and if you try to think too much about it, you too will go looney!!).

I found it ended rather unfulfillingly leaving most questions unanswered. He finally got some balls 15yrs later with his follow up book "Lila" which, much less popular, was much more fulfilling as Pirsig actually attempts to consider everything educational (ie academia), scientific, philosophical, and religious in life, connect it all (amazingly) with some possible "answers" to debate (as opposed to questions like in Zen).

Conclusion: I say it's all good, healthy, and "on-topic" enough for me!

 

[MBanks]

Steve,

I am having a similar issue i believe with starting. Could you please tell me how to multimeter test:

1). Whether or not my starter switch/wiring is good? (Have been pressing button, but no noise. Bridging starter relay makes the engine turn over)

2). Testing whether or not my relay is grounded properly (when you say "activate the relay" is that just pressing the start button while taking reading?)

There is a black/white wire that that connects to the starter relay mounting and runs somewhere under the tank, should this run from relay to negative? I guess if #2 above finds that it is not grounded, how do i do so?

I would be very much obliged for any help given
-Mbanks

If he has 12 volts at the yellow/green wire at the solenoid, there is no problem with the wiring in the handlebar.

Psyguy, connect one meter lead to the solenoid case and the other to the battery negative terminal. Activate the solenoid. I'll bet you see about 12 volts there. If you do, you need to ground the solenoid. The solenoid is mounted on a rubber-isolated plate which is supposed to be grounded with a wire to the chassis. The connections on that wire corrode along with all the other connections on the bike.

.

 

[Guest]

Could you please tell me how to multimeter test:

1). Whether or not my starter switch/wiring is good? (Have been pressing button, but no noise. Bridging starter relay makes the engine turn over)

2). Testing whether or not my relay is grounded properly (when you say "activate the relay" is that just pressing the start button while taking reading?)

1. from what i understood you need to check the green/yellow wire coming to the starter relay for voltage - voltmeter red wire onto the connector, black wire onto the batt "-". you should get 12v or so when you pres the START button

2. if the above is ok, to test the starter relay grounding, place the voltmeter red wire on the relay housing and black wire to the batt "-". if you get any voltage when you press the START button it means the relay is not grounded correctly