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New boots! Still won't idle.

  • Thread starter Thread starter UncleMike
  • Start date Start date
UncleMike said:
I've got a compression gauge coming tonight. We'll see how those valves/rings are doing.

Meanwhile, I guess I'll take the carbs off and clean 'em again.
Click to expand...

Good plan Mike. What Keith said about the carbs is solid info. Also though, I still question the valves at this point. Seals, adjustment? It has to be looked at, at this point.
 
At this point, I've gotta just keep ruling out possibilities until I arrive at the end. Gotta be methodical, gotta be patient, gotta be patient, gotta be patient.
 
Pulled the carbs again. The intake boots were wet with fuel.

Smoke came out of them when I pulled the carbs.
 
KEITH KRAUSE said:
There are some very tiny bypass ports, engine side of the throttle plates, near the top of the carb throat.
As part of the pilot circuit, these must be clean or the bike will starve while idling.
You say the bike will run if you throttle it some. This of course by-passes the choke and to an extent, depending on throttle position, the pilot circuit. Running better when at least partially by-passing the pilot circuit suggests the pilot circuit isn't clean or there's a vacuum problem.
Click to expand...

Keith,

Where should I spray carb cleaner to make sure those holes are clean? I'm assuming I want the spray to come OUT of those holes, no?

Thanks,
Mike
 
I was impatient and just started cleaning away. I unscrewed the mixture screws and stuck a piece of wire down there and saw it come out the other side, just like in the carb cleanup series. I sprayed some carb cleaner in there too, just for good measure. I also stuck the wire in the hole where the airscrew goes in and in the little choke passage in the float bowl and the tube that goes in it too.

Anything else I'm not thinking of before I slap these puppies back on AGAIN!?

Seriously guys, thanks for your help here. I appreciate it more than you'll ever know.

~Mike
 
Mike, I wasn't following completely. Did you dip these carbs? If not it simply must be done. Valves get my vote for being next.
 
I think somebody was talking earlier about the tiny cluster of passages right next to the place where your wire comes out when you push it down the mixture screw hole, but behind the flappers.

I think you should see mist shoot out of them if you shoot air/carb cleaner through one of the air jets on the air box side of the carb plenums (while you're holding the flapper open so you can see). At least I know I've seen mist shoot out of them while blowing out *something*. Maybe somebody else can be more specific.

You can probably ream out those holes with a bent wire (since the angle is too much for the standard straight matchstick wire "tool").
 
Hoomgar said:
Mike, I wasn't following completely. Did you dip these carbs? If not it simply must be done. Valves get my vote for being next.
Click to expand...

This spring I dipped the bodies all for at least 24 hours. The little bits got around 18 hours. I get my hands on a compression gauge in about an hour.
 
t3rmin said:
I think somebody was talking earlier about the tiny cluster of passages right next to the place where your wire comes out when you push it down the mixture screw hole, but behind the flappers.

I think you should see mist shoot out of them if you shoot air/carb cleaner through one of the air jets on the air box side of the carb plenums (while you're holding the flapper open so you can see). At least I know I've seen mist shoot out of them while blowing out *something*. Maybe somebody else can be more specific.

You can probably ream out those holes with a bent wire (since the angle is too much for the standard straight matchstick wire "tool").
Click to expand...

Are those part of the idle circuit as well?
 
UncleMike said:
This spring I dipped the bodies all for at least 24 hours. The little bits got around 18 hours. I get my hands on a compression gauge in about an hour.
Click to expand...


Rock on. I think your about to get some solid answers. Here is to hoping.
 
UncleMike said:
Are those part of the idle circuit as well?
Click to expand...

I can't see such tiny passages being good for much else, and I think somebody else indicated as much. But I'm really not that familiar with these carbs yet, so I can't say for sure.
 
While you still have carbs off bike, spray carb cleaner through air jets which are located on the edge of carb bell. These are on the air filter side of the carb towards the rear. It would not hurt to remove these and spray into carb body through pasageway. These jets can usually be removed with a precise fitting screwdriver and checked to make sure they are open. May not be cure, but while you have them out... Good luck, you will get to the problem soon.
 
I was assuming all along that the carbs had been cleaned but I know from experience that many people forget or miss the pilot circuit by-pass holes.
When your bike idles at the factory recommended idle, it's running on the pilot circuit. These bypass ports (they by-pass the throttle plates) are the fine tuning for the pilot circuit. The mixture screws regulate them. I don't know why you mention in a previous post that you cleaned mixture screws AND air screws/passages? Your CV carbs only have mixture screws.
I don't know if the "smoke" issue is condensation or oil burning. Oil will linger longer. Condensation is just water/mist.
Also, 17 volts is too high. I'm not sure if that means the regulator and/or stator is failing, but check the stator papers. You mentioned the bike starts to die as the voltmeter shows the volts going too high (beyond 15 volts at higher rpm's).
Sorry for such quick reply, but I'm off to work and just trying to keep on this.
 
KEITH KRAUSE said:
I was assuming all along that the carbs had been cleaned but I know from experience that many people forget or miss the pilot circuit by-pass holes.
When your bike idles at the factory recommended idle, it's running on the pilot circuit. These bypass ports (they by-pass the throttle plates) are the fine tuning for the pilot circuit. The mixture screws regulate them. I don't know why you mention in a previous post that you cleaned mixture screws AND air screws/passages? Your CV carbs only have mixture screws.
I don't know if the "smoke" issue is condensation or oil burning. Oil will linger longer. Condensation is just water/mist.
Also, 17 volts is too high. I'm not sure if that means the regulator and/or stator is failing, but check the stator papers. You mentioned the bike starts to die as the voltmeter shows the volts going too high (beyond 15 volts at higher rpm's).
Sorry for such quick reply, but I'm off to work and just trying to keep on this.
Click to expand...

They had been cleaned, I soaked the bodies for over 24 hours each. I just didn't know where all the little holes were. I found one in front of the throttle plate that I could ream out through the mixture screw passage. I also found three behind the throttle plate, but I couldn't figure out where to get at them, so I just stuck my wire up into them.

The air screw I'm talking about is the get on the airbox side throat.

And please don't apologize, Keith. Any amount of attention is appreciated.
 
CarbCut.jpg


I love this drawing. It shows all the tiny passages. I can't remember who posted this but I got it from this site.
 
Update

Update

So what does this tell you?

I took the carbs off again and cleaned all those passages again. The only ones I worry about are the tiny little ones behind the throttle plate. I could only just get a wire into there a little bit.

Put them back on and the bike while still stalling when I first start it unless I blip the throttle for a while, goes it idling quite quickly, ie within minutes rather than half an hour of hard riding.

I tool around town making sure to keep revs low so I can be passing fluid through the idle circuit. It's strong and smooth and most of the time it's keeping idle. A couple of times when coming to a stop after cruising for a while, it will threaten to die. Blip the throttle and the strong idle comes back, sometimes rising or hanging a bit.

This morning I go to start her and she's back to her old tricks, stalling out no matter what unless I blip that throttle, but again she idles after only a couple of minutes, albeit a weak idle around 900-1000.

I come upstairs for about ten minutes and then go back down to the garage and start her again. She starts right up with no choke and idles strongly at 1100.

I'm baffled.

~Mike
 
It did it again. I went to start it, and it would die not matter what I did, no matter where the choke was positioned, unless I blipped the throttle constantly, or just held it on a very tiny amount.

I shut it off and walked away for maybe two minutes and when I started it again, she started right away with no choke and idled nicely at 1100rpms.

What the hell is up with this bike?!?!!?

~Mike
 
UncleMike said:
It did it again. I went to start it, and it would die not matter what I did, no matter where the choke was positioned, unless I blipped the throttle constantly, or just held it on a very tiny amount.

I shut it off and walked away for maybe two minutes and when I started it again, she started right away with no choke and idled nicely at 1100rpms.
~Mike
Click to expand...
OK. At this point I'd assume the carbs are cleaned/set up well.
Clogged passages...clogged jets...incorrect float levels...incorrect vacuum synch...wouldn't cause the above statement to happen. Carbs can't clog up and then clear themselves or lose adjustments so quickly and allow the above to happen. Especially after the carbs have been cleaned and inspected for any obvious problems.
It's true that if your problem is fuel related and at the throttle position you describe, the pilot circuit and carb synch would be suspect. But you've addressed those areas and I have to assume the carbs are OK and now I think we can look elsewhere for what would cause this on-again-off again idle problem.
At this point I'd suspect the ignition system/spark quality.
We all know that an intermittent or weak spark, even at just one cylinder, can cause an idle/warm up problem. Electrical problems are infamous for on-again-off-again performance too. A poor connection can act up any way that it wants to at times. Electrical problems can drive you crazy.
Electrical/spark problems often "improve" with higher rpm's, such as when you give your bike that little bit of throttle when it's showing the problem. The higher rpm's equal higher voltage and that equals higher amps (current flow). The higher flow may help a poor connection at times. Simply turning off the bike and then re-starting can cause a poor connection to act up and change again.
I can't be certain your problem is electrical, but only carburetion or the electrical system can cause your specific problem. Poor compression, valves, rings, pistons, cams/timing, etc, would all cause problems that don't go away and then come back. And after the carb work you say has been done, the carbs should be OK too.
Granted, an intermittent spark should be something you can hear as the problems cylinder(s) fire and then miss firing. But it can be subtle sometimes and some people can't hear a missing bike even when they KNOW a bike is missing.
As for fixing/checking a possible electrical problem, I would simply check and VERIFY that each plug cap and lead connection is tight and clean of any corrosion. That means unscrewing them or disconnecting things and looking at every connection. Check the coil terminals too and check for broken strands of wire. Check the leads too for any signs of aging/cracking.
Make sure the aluminum caps are tight on the sparkplugs (if your caps require the aluminum caps be used). Follow your manual and check any other connection points that could cause your problem.
Next, check the ignition timing with a gun and verify that it's advancing as it should. Check it a couple of times at different rpm's. I believe your ignition advancer is non-adjustable but should still be checked. I don't know the specific design of your model but I know of some ignitions that can fail because the shaft rotor that contains the magnets/sensors breaks lose and spins on the shaft. This causes "hanging" and inconsistent idling speeds. So I'm just suggesting you make sure that everything is operating correctly behind the ignition cover.
Lastly, I'm no real expert on the charging system, but I suggest you check out the Stator Papers. I believe that if your voltage tester is showing 17 volts and your tester is accurate, you have a high voltage problem that needs to be fixed. It may involve replacing the regulator and/or stator. I believe that 15.5 volts at 5K rpm (?) is the maximum your system can handle before problems start showing up but check the Stator Papers first.
Hope this helps. I stayed up late trying to help you fix this or at least narrow things down. :)
 
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