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New head possibilities?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mpls-ugly
  • Start date Start date
M

mpls-ugly

Guest
Im considering getting a new head because I have a bad broken exhaust bolt in my bike now. I figure i could spend $200 with poor results to get it out or I could get a new head for $50. Im just wondering if there are any alternatives to a regular GS650 8 valve head? I have heard about 16v heads but Im not sure if they are interchangeable. I wouldn't really expect them to be but thought Id get some input.

Its a 82 GS650 GL not so L anymore.

Thanks
 
Replace the head because of a broken bolt?
 
Broken Exhaust bolt, Yes. My options are to EDM the broken "Easy-out" out of it then drill it out and tap it or just throw on a new head. I am looking at one other option revolving around a custom bracket to clamp down the exhaust flange without that one broken bolt but being aluminum I cant really weld anything. Am i being too abstract in this? or can you guys follow me??
 
ebay

ebay

GS1100ez said:
where can you get a new head for 50bucks?
Click to expand...

ebay, cycle scrap yard... May need work but its a head. there really is no value in any head. A head for My audi A4 2.8 V6 is only $45 all day anywhere. Salvage that is.
 
Removing a broken bolt is a trivial matter in the grand scheme. Condition of the valve guides, seats, and valves are what really drives cost when it comes to reconditioning a GS head.
 
On the broken bolt and easy out all you need is a small carbide grinding bit and a air grinder, or a carbide drill bit and a battery drill and some patience. Then retap, if you are careful you may be able to stay the same size. Replacing the head seems a little extreme but hard to tell without pics.
 
There is always the issue of "unknown quantities" when you buy used parts. Multiply that by a lot when you buy anything from ebay or Craigslist. A GS is not an Audi by the way. You may have a source for buying heads all day for $50. I'd think when push came to shove though, you'd end up spending more to get it all going than just taking your "known" head to a machine shop to have them take out the old stud.
 
I am aware that the true or complete cost of a head is well over $50. The Reason that this is up for consideration is because this is no trivial broken bolt. This is a seized bolt that has broken a couple times with different removal techniques that have failed. Now its flush with the head. Im going to have my master mechanic look at it before i do anything too drastic. In the mean time i am looking at my options.

or maybe Ill throw a audi head on it.
Don't be so snide buddy.
 
Those exhaust bolts are soft, which makes them easy to break off but also make them possible to drill out. If you are very careful and start by center punching the bolt in the center and using a small drill bit for the pilot hole, I think getting out the bolt without damaging the head is defiantly doable.
 
Every time I've tried to hand drill anything, let alone a hardened screw extractor, tap, or what have you with a carbide bit, the carbide bit just shattered.
As my understanding and (admittedly limited) experience shows, carbide is harder than most tool steel, but way brittle. Look at it crosseyed and watch it shatter. I don't see how this is a do-able at home repair.

Pull the head and take it to a machine shop who can fixture it and remove it properly. Plus, gives you a chance to check internals, as well.
 
Smokinapankake said:
Every time I've tried to hand drill anything, let alone a hardened screw extractor, tap, or what have you with a carbide bit, the carbide bit just shattered.
As my understanding and (admittedly limited) experience shows, carbide is harder than most tool steel, but way brittle. Look at it crosseyed and watch it shatter. I don't see how this is a do-able at home repair.

Pull the head and take it to a machine shop who can fixture it and remove it properly. Plus, gives you a chance to check internals, as well.
Click to expand...

A regular HHS drill bit is fine, or use cobalt. I've drilled out all kinds of different bolts over the years and have only had problems when I got in a hurry. If the hole gets off center while drilling, work the bit sideways and straighten out the hole before going to the next size larger bit size. I usually work in small steps and drill slowly. Removing the head is recommended of course unless you are blessed with direct access to the screw.
 
if multiple attempts have already failed, BRING IT TO A MACHINE SHOP!! my head had a broken exhaust bolt in it. The PO tried to drill it out but drilled it at an angle and broke off an extractor in it. I took it to a machine shop who fixed the whole, installed a heli-coil and it cost me $80. That's less than buying a $50 head and having to pay $50 shipping! Plus I know that everything else on the head is fine! If I have any more issues with it, I might see if I can get it welded in and re-drilled and tapped. Then it would be like new ready to be messed up once more!
 
While you may be able to find a head for around $50, the condition of such will be unknown to you, unless of course you go about checking the wear of the cams and journals, journal bearing caps, etc etc. You cant swap heads and just toss your cams in there. Well, you CAN, but you might be asking for massive trouble down the road. As you may well know, those are parts that wear together. As such, installing your cams in another head may cause rapid degredation of the bearings and/or journals. This would be bad news, as you'd be back to square one. You might get lucky and find a head with the cams in it, but these EBay nutcases seem to think that selling the head without the cams will yeild them more cash. (when really they end up sitting on both parts because people who do this type of stuff on the regular know the dangers) In a pinch, I have put cams from one bike into another, but to be honest, the score there is 1-1. One survived, one snapped immediately. Dunno the cause for sure, but im sure it didnt help. I would suggest pulling the head, taking it to the shop and having them do you up right. You can get the deck checked while youre at it, and inspect the other parts of the head.

At any rate, to answer your ORIGINAL question, to my knowlege, NONE of the 16v heads are transferable to 8v blocks. Simply wont work without a bunch of machining. And at that rate, its not worth it.
 
Thank you cafekid, That was the answer I assumed I would get to my original question but thanks for clarifying that. Changing heads is not something i "want" to do it is a last resort. And it will remain a last resort. Now I guess Ill continue my hunt for a capable machine shop in the Minneapolis area.
 
Do you have access to a welder? There was a thread from someone who built up the bolt with weld and it came out every time. The heat helps break it loose, he said. IF you break off an easy-out in there, using weld should still work.
 
TheCafeKid said:
While you may be able to find a head for around $50, the condition of such will be unknown to you, unless of course you go about checking the wear of the cams and journals, journal bearing caps, etc etc. You cant swap heads and just toss your cams in there. Well, you CAN, but you might be asking for massive trouble down the road. As you may well know, those are parts that wear together. As such, installing your cams in another head may cause rapid degredation of the bearings and/or journals. This would be bad news, as you'd be back to square one. You might get lucky and find a head with the cams in it, but these EBay nutcases seem to think that selling the head without the cams will yeild them more cash. (when really they end up sitting on both parts because people who do this type of stuff on the regular know the dangers) In a pinch, I have put cams from one bike into another, but to be honest, the score there is 1-1. One survived, one snapped immediately. Dunno the cause for sure, but im sure it didnt help. I would suggest pulling the head, taking it to the shop and having them do you up right. You can get the deck checked while youre at it, and inspect the other parts of the head.

At any rate, to answer your ORIGINAL question, to my knowlege, NONE of the 16v heads are transferable to 8v blocks. Simply wont work without a bunch of machining. And at that rate, its not worth it.
Click to expand...

I don't see a problem swapping cams, if your thoughts held true then all the drag racers and racer who use aftermarket cams would have snapped heads and cams. It is more important to use the orginal cam retainers from the matching head. The retainers are line bored and unique to each head.
 
If the cams are in spec and the journals are in spec no worries, right? Personally, I just think that you would risk so many other things by buying a used head. It may need the valve faces resurfaced, possibly the guides are shot, probably the valve seals. I would certainly expect to do a valve job and replace seals on any used head that I bought, no matter what the seller said about it. Of course, you would also mic the cam journals and the cams. I'm sure CafeKid did that before he installed a random set of cams :).
 
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