New stator is charging - ony at idle...

[TitanNeil]

In an attempt to fix my dodgy electrical/charging system, I made up a coil relay harness, installed it, then bought a new stator from RMStator. Arrived in 3 days, looked good, I installed it. Soldered it into the harness rather than using the supplied connectors. It started to pour rain as I was buttoning up the stator cover, so it remained untested (since it rained continually) for 2 weeks. Today I went out and it needed 'quick start' to get it running - and it ran like crap, as usual. Popping and spluttering. Took it for a 15 minute spin around the block and, thankfully, I didn't turn it off until I was back in the driveway. Not enough battery juice to start, it barely turned over. I popped in a KNOWN good battery with 12.95 volts, it fired right up and ran better - so I put the voltage meter on it: 13.5V and slowly climbing at idle, 13.2V continuous with 2 driving lights on. Yay!
Then the bad part: I rev it up a little - voltage plummets. 12.6 and dropping by about .1V every 3 seconds. Even with the driving lights off it is sucking the voltage away....
I called up my friend who diagnosed (over the phone) bad ignition coil or coils. Could this be the case as they are now wired almost directly to the battery?

 

[tom203]

Since it ran better with fully charged battery, I will not blame coils yet. I'll assume you did the stator tests and determined your old stator was no good. Now it sounds like your R/R is not working, but it could also be bad connections.

 

[Big T]

Ditto

Did you read thru the Stator Papers before you replaced the stator?

Fix your charging problem, then post up about bad running issues. Not likely to be coils. Did you test the coils?

 

[TitanNeil]

I read the Stator Papers (thank you BassCliff!) and found I had a bad stator. The R/R was replaced last summer with a new Suzuki one.
The bike seems to be charging fine now - AT IDLE. It is only when it is revving that the voltage drops drastically.

I have been through the harness and cleaned it and the grounds as best I could. The coil relay is wired right to the battery terminals, not the fuse box - would that be the issue?

 

[posplayr]

I read the Stator Papers (thank you BassCliff!) and found I had a bad stator. The R/R was replaced last summer with a new Suzuki one.
The bike seems to be charging fine now - AT IDLE. It is only when it is revving that the voltage drops drastically.

I have been through the harness and cleaned it and the grounds as best I could. The coil relay is wired right to the battery terminals, not the fuse box - would that be the issue?

Did you test the Modified Phase A tests?


http://www.thegsresources.com/statorpapers4.php

Link to Revised PHASE A of Stator Pages:

ORIGINAL_STATOR_PAGES

 

[TitanNeil]

I checked the + and - leads to the R/R, not much drop there. I think the stator is doing its job correctly as it is attempting to charge the battery to over 13.6V at idle. It is only when the engine is revved above idle that the voltage (measured at the battery) starts to drop quickly. I think if I rode it for 15 or 20 minutes it would drain the battery to the point that it would stop running. If I left it idling it would recharge just fine.
Sooo, anyone think this is a bad coil as it seems to draw excess voltage under load? The coils are original.

(BTW, I have some of the lingo down o.k. but I am by no means anything but a rank amateur when it comes to motorcycle electrics...)

 

[bakalorz]

I read the Stator Papers (thank you BassCliff!) and found I had a bad stator. The R/R was replaced last summer with a new Suzuki one.
The bike seems to be charging fine now - AT IDLE. It is only when it is revving that the voltage drops drastically.

I have been through the harness and cleaned it and the grounds as best I could. The coil relay is wired right to the battery terminals, not the fuse box - would that be the issue?

An unrelated thing first: if the coil relay does not have an inline fuse between the coil and battery, add one ... this is not contributing to your problem but it IS a safety issue.

On to your question.
I don't think its likely to be the coils or coil relay, and think you should probably go through the stator papers to troubleshoot your problem.

But if you want to rule out the coil relay, coils, and ignitor you could rule it out if your volt/ohm meter has a 10 or 20 amp range:
Disconnect the positive wire wire feeding the coil relay (after the fuse you have now added ) and insert the meter set to 10 amps in the circuit between the fuse and relay.

Run the bike. I'm not sure exactly how high the current should be , but in the back of my mind I remember something like 6 or 7 amps, increasing moderately with RPM.

If its anything close to that you're good, if the meter pegs at idle, or even as you come a little off idle then that could be your problem ...

All that said, I really doubt the coils or coil relay are the problem.

 

[jbs80106]

I suspect your Reg/Rect needs to be replaced again, especially if you replaced it and later on had bad stator, probably cooked something in the Reg/Rect so that when it's at idle it's passing through correctly, but when you rev up, and the Reg has to burn off some of the overage coming from the stator the circuit isn't working properly.

I went though 2 reg/rects in 13 months, Electrosport spotted me the extra month and let me fall within the 1 yr warrantee (no charge for replacement, just shipping). Also replaced stator (again) but with a new used one.

Because these are electrically connected, I'm not positive but believe you can fail/replace your reg/rect if stator is good with low risk. But when the stator goes bad seems higher risk that it will toast the reg/rect too.

I replaced mine in pairs so had 2 known 'good' components.

Not a betting man but suspect you need to replace the R/R....

 

[BassCliff]

Hi,

Your issue is not the coils. But double-check to make sure you have the coil relay mod installed correctly. What is your voltage at the coils?

My first thought is corrosion in the wiring harness and grounds. What is the voltage drop between the r/r output and the positive battery terminal? (If this increases as you rev up, you've got too much resistance. This would explain why the voltage at the battery decreases as you rev up.) Have you cleaned and re-soldered the connections in the fuse box? Is the ground wire of the r/r unit connected directly to the negative terminal of the battery? Clean the ground strap from the negative battery terminal to the engine case. Use DeoxIT or similar on all of the connectors to clean them. A small wire brush is good for scrubbing oxidation from frame grounds and connections. Keep us informed.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff

 

[posplayr]

I checked the + and - leads to the R/R, not much drop there. I think the stator is doing its job correctly as it is attempting to charge the battery to over 13.6V at idle. It is only when the engine is revved above idle that the voltage (measured at the battery) starts to drop quickly. I think if I rode it for 15 or 20 minutes it would drain the battery to the point that it would stop running. If I left it idling it would recharge just fine.
Sooo, anyone think this is a bad coil as it seems to draw excess voltage under load? The coils are original.

(BTW, I have some of the lingo down o.k. but I am by no means anything but a rank amateur when it comes to motorcycle electrics...)

Sound like very bad conenctions. The original stator page tests are not very good; look at the revised one. Also see the GS Charging System heath post

 

[TitanNeil]

I appreciate the advice and if the rain holds off today i'll attack the bike again and post results. Thanks.

 

[posplayr]

voltage fold back

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=122344&highlight=voltage+foldback

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?p=1250233&highlight=voltage+foldback#post1250233


http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?p=1212405&highlight=voltage+foldback#post1212405


http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=978693&postcount=13

You need to narrow down where the voltage drop is coming from when the bike is charging and pushing the most current to The battery. It also helps to follow the power and grounding tips as this minimizes the sensitivity to this problem.

 

[TitanNeil]

Update....

Update....

O.k, so I spent some time on the GS the other day and got some good results, but it ain't done yet.
I removed the carbs, stripped and cleaned them to within an inch of their life. They were clean to begin with but the idle and choke circuits had a few clogs - now it starts properly, choke works as advertised and idle is at 1000RPM!
I bench-synced the butterfly valves (never did THAT before, they were a bit off) and removed the snorkel. Now runs like a new one.

STILL doesn't charge the battery, except at idle. I checked connections at battery, grounds and R/R, can see nothing amiss. All connections were cleaned and had dielectric grease applied.

Posplayer, I attempted to read the posts about voltage foldback but ended up with a headache. I can use the voltmeter and check how the battery is doing but the 'friendly discussion/hate mail' between you and Bakelorz in the linked threads left me utterly confused. I'm sure I could figure out the issue, but only if the testing procedure was explained to me as one would explain it to a small child - an autistic small child, who is playing Nintendo during the explanation.

 

[posplayr]

O.k, so I spent some time on the GS the other day and got some good results, but it ain't done yet.
I removed the carbs, stripped and cleaned them to within an inch of their life. They were clean to begin with but the idle and choke circuits had a few clogs - now it starts properly, choke works as advertised and idle is at 1000RPM!
I bench-synced the butterfly valves (never did THAT before, they were a bit off) and removed the snorkel. Now runs like a new one.

STILL doesn't charge the battery, except at idle. I checked connections at battery, grounds and R/R, can see nothing amiss. All connections were cleaned and had dielectric grease applied.

Posplayer, I attempted to read the posts about voltage foldback but ended up with a headache. I can use the voltmeter and check how the battery is doing but the 'friendly discussion/hate mail' between you and Bakelorz in the linked threads left me utterly confused. I'm sure I could figure out the issue, but only if the testing procedure was explained to me as one would explain it to a small child - an autistic small child, who is playing Nintendo during the explanation.

You can read Bakeloz posts but I have him on ignore, so I would never refer to him.

The point is you have to measure the voltage drops as per the revised stator pages. Since you did not report any, I'm assuming you did not measure them. If there are voltage drops you can very easily have the symptoms you describe.

You need a volt meter and you need to measure the voltage drops at 5K RPM.

 

[TitanNeil]

Update

Update

O.k, I finally got back at the bike thanks to some sunny weather.
Bike fires right up (carbs clean now), idles great and charging at 13.9V at battery and 14.5 at the fuse box terminals. Voltage still plummets when revved to 5000RPM. I had the ground wire from the R/R attached to the battery box, relocated to the Batt. neg. terminal - made no difference. I tried to unplug ther R/R but the plastic connector wouldn't release - it was practically welded on! I finally got it off and saw that the white wire with red stripe had fused itself to the metal tang and the plastic was cooked all around it. I think there may be a problem...
This may have been from the bad stator, but it obviously isn't working as it should now. Does the white/red wire supply voltage at higher revs? Is this my problem?
Also, voltage drop from red wire on R/R is 0.37V, higher than the 0.25V allowed as stated in the revised stator page.

 

[posplayr]

O.k, I finally got back at the bike thanks to some sunny weather.
Bike fires right up (carbs clean now), idles great and charging at 13.9V at battery and 14.5 at the fuse box terminals. Voltage still plummets when revved to 5000RPM. I had the ground wire from the R/R attached to the battery box, relocated to the Batt. neg. terminal - made no difference. I tried to unplug ther R/R but the plastic connector wouldn't release - it was practically welded on! I finally got it off and saw that the white wire with red stripe had fused itself to the metal tang and the plastic was cooked all around it. I think there may be a problem...
This may have been from the bad stator, but it obviously isn't working as it should now. Does the white/red wire supply voltage at higher revs? Is this my problem?
Also, voltage drop from red wire on R/R is 0.37V, higher than the 0.25V allowed as stated in the revised stator page.

this is the problem you have to chase down. The negative side is helped by the grounding recommendations. If that drop is at idle, measure it at 5000 RPM ; it will normally be higher at higher RPM because there is more current being pushed through.

 

[TitanNeil]

Thanks Posplayer for helping me out with this - the bike is apart and i'm checking connections now. Really, the 5-wire connector that plugs into the R/R is a problem - all the wires are a bit melted and the white/red is DEFINITELY melted. There is probably an unhappy amount of resistance in all of them.

 

[posplayr]

Thanks Posplayer for helping me out with this - the bike is apart and i'm checking connections now. Really, the 5-wire connector that plugs into the R/R is a problem - all the wires are a bit melted and the white/red is DEFINITELY melted. There is probably an unhappy amount of resistance in all of them.

I have had a bad connector (loose crimps) on a Electrosport R/R (brand new), that cause the type of volatge drop you are describing. I just got rid of the connections all together and just soldered it in and it worked fine.

This is why in the revised stator pages (see my link) the only real test of connections is to do it at 5K RPM and get below at least 0.2V on both positive and negative sides.


http://www.thegsresources.com/statorpapers4.php

Link to Revised PHASE A of Stator Pages:

 

[TitanNeil]

Fixed!

Fixed!

I fixed it! Thanks Posplayer! (and others!) for the very useful pointers, links to tutorials, and for answering back even though I might not have followed instructions perfectly...

I discovered that the 5 wires going in to the rectifier were quite melted & internally corroded. One had melted and was probably arcing to another under higher load. I ended up clipping off the plastic connector and 1" of wiring from the 5 ends, tinning and crimping on separate female blade connectors to attach to the R/R. It seems to have fixed the problem, as it is charging at 14.5V at idle and 13.5V at 5000RPM. I don't know if this is ideal, all I know is that even though there were 4 guests arriving for dinner I simple HAD to go for a 15 minute ride to test the charging system. It worked flawlessly, and when I arrived back, I shut off the bike and could actually start it again! Lotsa battery! Frig, dinner can wait - I have a bike again!

 

[posplayr]

I fixed it! Thanks Posplayer! (and others!) for the very useful pointers, links to tutorials, and for answering back even though I might not have followed instructions perfectly...

I discovered that the 5 wires going in to the rectifier were quite melted & internally corroded. One had melted and was probably arcing to another under higher load. I ended up clipping off the plastic connector and 1" of wiring from the 5 ends, tinning and crimping on separate female blade connectors to attach to the R/R. It seems to have fixed the problem, as it is charging at 14.5V at idle and 13.5V at 5000RPM. I don't know if this is ideal, all I know is that even though there were 4 guests arriving for dinner I simple HAD to go for a 15 minute ride to test the charging system. It worked flawlessly, and when I arrived back, I shut off the bike and could actually start it again! Lotsa battery! Frig, dinner can wait - I have a bike again!

This is telling me you probably have corrosion in either the fuse box or at the "T" in the harness. When the voltage drops like that , I call it voltage fold back because the voltage at the R/R is probably 14.5V , but the voltage drops between it and the battery are making the battery voltage down 13.5V. So you are probably looking at 0.75V drops or more somewhere still.

OK for the moment, but don't expect it to get any better.

here is a pic of where the "T" is; it is close to where the R/R connections enter the harness.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showpost.php?p=1418206&postcount=7

these are the crimps in the fuse box (assuming the style you have) that can get corroded as well. Clean with some navel jelly and flow some solder into those crimps will improve things as well.

The picture is fuzzy, but you can see teh solder in the two foreground crimps.

The Front left red one is a direct connection to the battery. The red wire on left back row is fused and goes to the "T" (where it connects to the R/R and on to the ignition switch). Power returns from the ignition switch on the right Front Orange in the foreground and distributes to the 3 legs on the back row (also orange) I think the O/W starts after the right hand switch controls.

Anyhow the two left hand crimps contribute to voltage drops in the charging, but it doesnt hurt to clean them all up.