Oil system modifications

[Hap Call]

Okay guys, here’s the deal:

Mark (Shaftzuki) is supplying me with a GS1100E bottom end that has been cut to accept 1261cc cylinders. I will begin to feverously save money to obtain a cylinder block and pistons to complete the engine. My request for information has to do with oil system modifications.

I plan to install duel oil coolers on the engine to insure a long productive life. It will also have 750 oil pump gears for increased flow and the top end oiler will be utilized when the motor in put in the bike. The area that I need ideas on is the cooling of the larger cylinders. Because there is less space between the cylinders I wish to install cooling jets similar to those found on the GSXR air/oil cooled engines that followed our GS/GSX designs. Here I am hitting a wall…how do I supply enough oil pressure to spray the cylinder walls and the underside of the pistons? I’m looking into a electrically driven oil pump that has been used in supplying oil for turbochargers…are there any other possibilities that I am not considering?

Hap the Horrible
You can call me Happy for short

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

All of your ideas sound good Unless you are running 24 hr indurance race I don't think I woud worry about it, with the oil pump mods I would discuss with your engine builder weather it would be of any benifit to enlarge the oiling holes in the rod

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Oil system modifications

Okay guys, here?s the deal:

Mark (Shaftzuki) is supplying me with a GS1100E bottom end that has been cut to accept 1261cc cylinders. I will begin to feverously save money to obtain a cylinder block and pistons to complete the engine. My request for information has to do with oil system modifications.

I plan to install duel oil coolers on the engine to insure a long productive life. It will also have 750 oil pump gears for increased flow and the top end oiler will be utilized when the motor in put in the bike. The area that I need ideas on is the cooling of the larger cylinders. Because there is less space between the cylinders I wish to install cooling jets similar to those found on the GSXR air/oil cooled engines that followed our GS/GSX designs. Here I am hitting a wall?how do I supply enough oil pressure to spray the cylinder walls and the underside of the pistons? I?m looking into a electrically driven oil pump that has been used in supplying oil for turbochargers?are there any other possibilities that I am not considering?

Hap the Horrible
You can call me Happy for short

Hap
Murdoch racing has lots of used parts on his shelves in the machine shop.
Just a thought.
Jay is usually a willing councilor on engine mods also.

 

[Hap Call]

All of your ideas sound good Unless you are running 24 hr indurance race I don't think I woud worry about it, with the oil pump mods I would discuss with your engine builder weather it would be of any benifit to enlarge the oiling holes in the rod

Hmmm, that would be an interesting conversation...I already talk to my self too much! I do some long distance riding but I also get caught in stop and go traffic, which worries me more.

Scotty, I will give Murdoch a holler. I think Bertrand may also have some constructive ideas...

Thanks for the input guys!

Hap

 

[skip]

my bike has been 1229 cc(max bore with out sleeving) for over ten years and I have gone 500 mi in a day with no trouble. I also have the lower engine cowl and fairing wich limits the air the motor gets when you are moving slow. I have the high volume oil pump gears and have never had a problem till this year. After riding in 90 degree weather for three hours on the highway I got stuck in a traffic jam for over 1/2 hour. I was not watching the temp gauge and the bike began burning oil. I have since dicovered it was only a seal that got over heated. I dont belive a top end oiling kit would have prevented this. If you keep an eye on your temp gauge when you get in traffic jams you probally will be just fine.

 

[redliner1973]

I don't see how cooling will be an issue because of larger cylinders, due to the fact that there is no space for cooling air to go in between the cylinders even on a stocker. the only problem that I can see is that fact of the cylinders being slightly thinner due to the overbore, and I think as long as the compression is kept under a massive amount, you are doing Ok with 750 gears and one oil cooler. the only other problem I see is using 2 coolers + a top end luber, too many places for oil to be going at one time, maybe the 750 gears will make up for this? :twisted:

 

[Hap Call]

I don't see how cooling will be an issue because of larger cylinders, due to the fact that there is no space for cooling air to go in between the cylinders even on a stocker. the only problem that I can see is that fact of the cylinders being slightly thinner due to the overbore, and I think as long as the compression is kept under a massive amount, you are doing Ok with 750 gears and one oil cooler. the only other problem I see is using 2 coolers + a top end luber, too many places for oil to be going at one time, maybe the 750 gears will make up for this? :twisted:

There are air passages between the cylinders on stock engines. This engine will be resleaved with larger sleeves to handle the bigger bore which means smaller cooling passages.

I'm confident the 750 gears will push enough oil for the top end oiler and the duel coolers. One cooler is going to have a thermostat activated fan for those slow days in traffic.

Hap

 

[Paul]

Hap
there's an Australian guy who posts on here, he has been running a 1238 block on a GS1000 (2-valve) for a few years with no problems. I've just remembered his name - Simon Lambert - see http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/viewtopic.php?t=15192
I'm sure you've already been there though!
Dual oil coolers seem a little excessive to me, but it's better to be safe than sorry!
Keep in touch on how you are going to spray the oil onto the liners.

 

[Don Lobacz]

How about a small switched cooling fan to blow between the center 2 cylinders. The outer cylinders probably have adequate finning. MC junkyards have a huge assortment of fans from the liquid-cooled bikes, and most are quite small and thin.

 

[focus frenzy]

hey Hap!
the cylinders is not as big a issue as head cooling, this is why the fins on the head are larger than the cylinders.

you can increase the amount of oil getting to the under side of the pistons by increasing the flow of oil to the crank shaft, as it spins it flings oil, some of wich goes up the cylinders and cotes the piston bottom and cylinder walls.
increase the amount of oil flowing to, and through the crank and rod bearins and you will increase the amount of oil getting on the bottom of the pistons.
A item that will help with keeping temps down is to run the top end oil line through the second oil cooler before it gets to the head, this way the engine will be getting cooled oil where it can use it most, in the head.

 

[saaz]

All good ideas. The GSX1400, which is in a lower state of tune than Hap is suggesting, has a huge oil cooler with thermo fans. It may be difficult to try and replicate the Suzuki air/oil cool setup. Splitting the oil cooler system into two as Lynn suggested sounds a good way to go.

You can never have too big an oil cooler!

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe you could skip the hydraulic pump idea and use an oil agitator set up. Some oil rigs have a piece of coat hanger attached to their crank shaft so that it splashes oil up on the motors underside. These run at something like 200RPM so connecting it to a high-reving motor wouldn't work.

I think B&S motors use a little gear at the bottom of the motor. The gear is spinning freely in the oil tossing the stuff up at the pistons.

It's worth a check looking at the small 4-cycle motors for ideas. A lot of them do not have oil pumps.

Cheeers, Steve

 

[redliner1973]

You may want to consider this option also...You may not want an extra amount of oil under the pistons due to that fact it may overload the oil rings and cause increased oil consumption. I would concentrate more oil to the head moreso that the cylinders, as cylinders perfer a hotter temp vs the head. I would go for more oil there, where the real cooling is needed. JMHO.... :twisted:

 

[Anonymous]

sorry for budding in but I felt the need to comment on some of the things suggested here..

1) if money is an issue I suggest investing in a block of a GS1150 (which can be bored to 1260 max. on standard sleeves) instead of having to resleeve the original GS1100 block which will involve a lot of labour (and cost).

2) resleeving a standard block could (should) never cause the airpassages between the cylinders to become smaller..

3) it's a misconception that fitting extra cooler(s) will increase the lifespan of your engine.. it may even DEcrease it!
the important point here is keeping the engine temperature in the optimum range (70 - 90 deg C.) ..so extra coolers mean it will take longer before the engine is fully warmed up (if at all!!) which will lead to more wear..
on my bike ('81 GS(X)750/1100 with 1260 kit in gs1150 block) I have one big oilcooler AND a oiltemp gauge fitted which keeps me informed on the cooling needs of the engine at any time..
the information gathered by this gauge actually lead me run the bike with the cooler taped up for most of the time! ..only riding around in slow traffic and during summer will cause the temp to rise to 100+ deg.C..
so a fitting a thermostat would be the best solution.. bypassing the cooler so the engine will be able to warm up fast and redirecting the oilflow if the engine gets to hot.. (but these things are expensive so I made myself a sort of louvre/shutter-plate to go in front of the cooler which I can open and close to the demands of the oil temp.. if it gets really hot I still have to stop and take the whole thing of by hand though.. )

4) I doubt whether it's worth the hassle to have extra (GSX-R) cooling jets installed..
obviously the spinning crank supplies enough oil to the pistons+rings to keep them from seizing on the cylinder wall so it seems likely that in the proces the pistons will also get cooled sufficiantly.. (also: these pistons are actually designed not to receive the extra cooling provided by the jets!)
so just use quality (synth)oil and fit a temp gauge!

5) topend oiling kit..
fitting one of these will not neccesarily mean it will improve the lubrication of the cams and rockers.. these kits are only useful if the original oilway paths have been blocked or otherwise comprimised..
many dragbikes are fitted with oiling kits because of the use of copper headgaskets which are very difficult to get oil thight around the oilways/studs.. so they block the original oilway and fit the oiling lines as a bypass to the head.. also the often used big blocks have only a small (or none at all) oil "ridge" on the underside of the block which normally provides lubrication to the exhaust cam..

well.. this concludes my little rant.. :wink:
just remember to relace the filter cover with a GS1150 item (or modify the old one) if you're going to connect the cooler to the front of the engine.. else the cooler won't cool..

 

[Hap Call]

1) if money is an issue I suggest investing in a block of a GS1150 (which can be bored to 1260 max. on standard sleeves) instead of having to resleeve the original GS1100 block which will involve a lot of labour (and cost).

I have a 1100 block that was donated to me by Mark (Shaftzuki) that has already been cut for 1261cc sleeves?the cost of a 1100 or a 1150 case are expensive here?less expensive for me to purchase a performance kit from Wiseco which has the pistons, pins, rings, gaskets, and block with additional finning.

2) resleeving a standard block could (should) never cause the airpassages between the cylinders to become smaller..

When you have to clearance the cases for larger sleeves, then you are reducing the size of the cooling passages between cylinders. On a 1100, you must go with sleeves that have a larger outer diameter if you go beyond 1166cc.

3) it's a misconception that fitting extra cooler(s) will increase the lifespan of your engine.. it may even DEcrease it!
the important point here is keeping the engine temperature in the optimum range (70 - 90 deg C.) ..so extra coolers mean it will take longer before the engine is fully warmed up (if at all!!) which will lead to more wear..
on my bike ('81 GS(X)750/1100 with 1260 kit in gs1150 block) I have one big oilcooler AND a oiltemp gauge fitted which keeps me informed on the cooling needs of the engine at any time..
the information gathered by this gauge actually lead me run the bike with the cooler taped up for most of the time! ..only riding around in slow traffic and during summer will cause the temp to rise to 100+ deg.C..
so a fitting a thermostat would be the best solution.. bypassing the cooler so the engine will be able to warm up fast and redirecting the oilflow if the engine gets to hot.. (but these things are expensive so I made myself a sort of louvre/shutter-plate to go in front of the cooler which I can open and close to the demands of the oil temp.. if it gets really hot I still have to stop and take the whole thing of by hand though.. )

I agree with everything you say here except the first statement is a little too all encompassing. Here in Texas, it is common to see several weeks with temperatures reaching 38 C and beyond everyday and nighttime temperatures never dropping below 32 C. I have not see the temperature where I live drop below 0 C in five years, even ?in the dead of winter?. I have a thermostat already for the system and from personal experience I can tell you that I need an oil cooler. It is border line now with the 1166 engine I have at this time.

4) I doubt whether it's worth the hassle to have extra (GSX-R) cooling jets installed..
obviously the spinning crank supplies enough oil to the pistons+rings to keep them from seizing on the cylinder wall so it seems likely that in the proces the pistons will also get cooled sufficiantly.. (also: these pistons are actually designed not to receive the extra cooling provided by the jets!)
so just use quality (synth)oil and fit a temp gauge!

If they were cast pistons, I would agree, but I will be using forged pistons in this rebuild.

5) topend oiling kit..
fitting one of these will not neccesarily mean it will improve the lubrication of the cams and rockers.. these kits are only useful if the original oilway paths have been blocked or otherwise comprimised..
many dragbikes are fitted with oiling kits because of the use of copper headgaskets which are very difficult to get oil thight around the oilways/studs.. so they block the original oilway and fit the oiling lines as a bypass to the head.. also the often used big blocks have only a small (or none at all) oil "ridge" on the underside of the block which normally provides lubrication to the exhaust cam..

I agree with you here also but would like to add that heavy duty cylinder studs which have a larger diameter are also to blame?most engine builders will trim the copper gasket to allow oil flow ? they cannot trim the studs.

just remember to relace the filter cover with a GS1150 item (or modify the old one) if you're going to connect the cooler to the front of the engine.. else the cooler won't cool..

I already have one.

Here is the general layout of the system:

Hap

 

[Anonymous]

hi Hap!
that's a nice schematic of your setup..

and when I was talking about the size of oilcoolers I was clearly having the kind of temperatures in mind we enjoy (not really :roll: ) overhere in the Netherlands.. Texas sounds like an inferno though so keeping a GS cool is an important issue obviously..

about the bigger diameter hd-studs compromising the oilflow.. you have a point there but if you actually calculate the remaining space you'll find this area compares to an oilline of 3,32 mm inner diameter which will probably just be large enough..
but I must admit using the stock studs in the oilways while using hd-studs for the rest just to be on the safe side.. :wink:
the holes in copper gaskets are just as large as the oilways in the block though.. so I don't understand why anyone would want to enlarge these further..

as for the "air passages" between the cylinders.. here I was talking about the spaces between cyl. #1 & 2 and #3 & 4 in the CYLINDER BLOCK! not the space between the protruding sleeves in the cases! (which obviously will become smaller)
sorry for any misunderstanding..

anyway.. good luck with the 1260 project!