OK, tell me what I did wrong here...

[tfb]

G'day all,

Well, it's only about 200kms since rebuilding the top-end of the GS1000S. It's been running without a hitch, until this afternoon when what did I see but a wretched OIL LEAK from the head gasket. Arrrggh.

Now, I must say that I did wonder if this would happen. Let me explain.

13 years ago when I rebuilt the top end of my previous GS1000S, I used an aftermarket head gasket which -- unlike the OE Suzuki head gaskets produced at that time -- didn't have a rubber O-ring built into the gasket, where the oil is pumped up the cylinder stud to the head.

It ended up leaking, and I ended up having to pull the head off again and installing an OE gasket: end of problem.

The gasket which was supplied for my current rebuild was a Suzuki gasket, but it is made out of 5 thin sheets of steel, each sheet coated in a soft sort of silver paint.

I looked at it skeptically, because I could see no O-rings built into the two corners where the oil is channelled through on its way up to the head. But I thought, "Hey, Suzuki know what they're doing, quit being such a skeptic, install the gasket, it'll be fine".

Well, as I was putting the gasket in, I couldn't help doubting its oil-tightness. So I put the thinnest of smears of hi-temp silicone around the oil-channel holes, and then torqued it all up.

But, it's leaking. What did I do wrong? Are these type of gaskets duds? It cost me nearly $90 (Australian dollars) and I'm not happy. ](*,)

 

[Unclesol]

Bummer

Bummer

I would guess you should have gone with your gut.
Have you tried re-torquing all the bolts? They can stretch slightly during a "break-in" period, after a rebuild.

 

[BadBillyB]

The gasket which was supplied for my current rebuild was a Suzuki gasket, but it is made out of 5 thin sheets of steel, each sheet coated in a soft sort of silver paint.

Tfb, by your description you purchased a MLS (multi layer steel) head gasket. I have never seen one of these offered for a GS1000. Are you sure it's an OEM part ???.....They are usually only used on aluminum head/cast iron blocks type set ups. They also require a very smooth finish on the head and block with very minimal warpage. Unlikely your block and head are smooth and flat enough to use one. I always used aftermarket Vesrah gaskets with good results. I have 4 of them still hanging in the garage. If you weren't so far away, I would send you one....heres a good link for you
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/us/us80222.htm
and another........BadBillyB
http://www.cometic.com/faq.aspx

 

[tfb]

Thanks guys for the comiserations... Needless to say I'm pretty jacked-off with this oil leak, because it means more hours of spannering when I would rather be riding the old girl, running the engine in.

I will try re-torquing, of course, because it's so easy to do. But I will be very surprised if it stops the leak. At best, you could expect it to slow down. But once oil has made its way through a joint, experience tells me that it will just continue to seep through.

Yes, the gasket is a genuine Suzuki item (it had a sticker on the wrapping with the p/n on it... which has long gone in the rubbish collection, otherwise I could check it on the AlphaSports online fiches), but as to whether it's the proper gasket for the GS1000, I can't say for sure. It did fit in perfectly, though, very neatly following the contours of the cylinder block. And it is the gasket the Suzuki dealership (very respected crew here in Perth) sold to me for the bike, along with all the other parts.

If re-torquing doesn't fix things, my first port of call will be to go back and see what the dealer says. But I'm not really expecting a free gasket, and I don't want one if it's another MLS jobbie. A refund would be nice, though. But unlikely!

Thanks for the tip re. the Vesrah gasket too, BadBillyB. Do these gaskets have O-rings incorporated into them, or do you use some sort of sealant around the oil-channel holes, or do you just pop them in 'as is'? I don't want to be dismantling things for a third time!

Cheers,
Mike.

 

[BadBillyB]

Thanks for the tip re. the Vesrah gasket too, BadBillyB. Do these gaskets have O-rings incorporated into them, or do you use some sort of sealant around the oil-channel holes, or do you just pop them in 'as is'? I don't want to be dismantling things for a third time!

Cheers,
Mike.

Mike, they have what looks like a copper crush ring at the corners. No you should not have to put any kind of sealer on them. Just put it on dry and be sure you replace the rectangular seal at the center of the block. I suspect that the fact that the MLS one leaked pretty badly, you should carefully inspect the block and head surface for imperfections. When you get them both real clean to your satisfaction, lower the head on the block, with the dowel pins in place and no gasket. This insures that the dowels are not causing an issue, which they can if the heads been milled. Now you can take a bright flashlight and see if you can shine it through the gasket surface area.....A composite gasket like the Vesrah head gasket will be way more forgiving if the surfaces are not really great......Found one here with a small pic, you can see the combustion seal is steel and the corners have what looks like copper.......BadBillyB
http://z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=2732

 

[Mike McNaney]

Hi Mike, Those gaskets are supposed to be put on dry. the silverish product on them is a light sealer that cures with heat and the layers are malable metal. by putting another product on them you keep them from sealing / curing to the head or block and disrupt the crush in that area. Re-torqueing wont help since the torque for the headbolts is so light and the sealer has cured off the needed surfaces. Sorry, its probably time to bite the bullet.

How would I know? I played this same game back in the day when I was used to working on U.S. cast iron car motors and was given a Honda 1.5 to change the head gasket on. I did this same thing twice on the same car !! using copper spray sealer. I thought the first gasket was crap or that I had dinged it accidently.

You are in a slightly better situation than I was. Its your bike and you wont have to do it twice.

 

[tfb]

OK, I've just got inside from re-torquing the head, in the off-chance that this might save me the tedium of dismantling everything, and the financial pain of another gasket (to say nothing of waiting for it to arrive -- I hate waiting!).

If this actually does the trick I think I'll crack a bottle of champers.

Cheers,
Mike.

 

[katalica]

Hey TFB,
Had to pull my Kat 1000 head last month because of a ex. valve that wasn't seating properly but anyway,ran in to the gasket issue of the multi layered deal and because length of time to get that style I decided to go with Cometic gasket which was is a fiber one piece design and so far knock on wood no problem so far. Did you replace the 2 orings on the forward stud nuts?? Good luck and by the way enjoyed reading your web site stories A++++. Good luck

 

[tfb]

G'day katalica (love that 'call sign', by the way!),

Thanks for the tip-off re the Cometic fibre gasket; if this re-torquing doesn't work, then I'll be off to get something else -- no more faffing around with MLS gaskets.

The GS1000 (2-valve) heads don't have the O-rings around the front centre stud nuts like the Katanas... so one thing I didn't have to replace! I did replace the tear-drop-shaped O-rings where the outer rear studs meet the crankcase, however. In fact I replaced all O-rings, including the large ones around the base of the cylinder sleeves, the rectangular cam-chain tunnel one, etc. etc. because like most of us, I HATE OIL LEAKS!

Cheers,
Mike.

 

[bucketsofgs1000]

I have a similar problem. I bought an aftermarket head gasket (in a complete gasket set) when I rebuilt my motor. After installing and rebuilding the motor I proceeded to run it in and after about 800 miles I re-torqued the head gasket. I thought I was supposed to wait until the motor was mostly run in to do that. I now have a sweating problem from the head gasket and the oil runs down the cylinder block as well. Not a fast leak, but certainly enough to tick you off after rebuilding an entire bike. I spoke to a good friend of mine who has been a motorcycle mechanic/racer/race-bike builder for many years and he told me that when installing head gasket on these 2v gs1000 motors (and I think he meant on all bikes) that you must install it, torque the head, start the motor and warm up the bike, then stop the bike and let it sit until the next day when it is dead cold. At that time you re-torque the head and you should be set. Obviously this is not what I did and I am thinking of trying again this spring. Unfortunately for me I don't have a garage or shop space to do this type of work, so I need to wait until I have a nice day (on my day off) and all the parts on hand to do the whole job at once. Good luck with yours and let me know if you find any tricks to the install out for when I do mine.

-Zack

 

[tfb]

G'day Zack,

Yep, sounds like it happens quite often. What I ended up doing was re-torquing up the stud nuts, and then adding an extra few ft-lbs for good measure -- figuring that because it's not a fibre gasket, it won't compress any further, and all I want to do is reduce the minute gaps between the steel layers.

Well, it seems to have worked. The oil leak slowed to being almost undetectable, and now it seems to have stopped altogether -- which I find very surprising, but there you go.

Having been through this weeping-gaskets-on-GS1000's saga two times now, I will be insisting on OE fibre gaskets with built-in O-rings every time.

All the best with getting yours sorted out.

Mike.

 

[rapidray]

One thing you guys all need to remember, NEVER, I repeat NEVER, use any kind of sealer on a stock gasket! Ray.

 

[bucketsofgs1000]

When you say stock gasket, I assume you mean aftermarket gaskets as well. Is that the case? I did not use any sealant on any of my gaskets, because I have always heard the same thing, a gasket is the seal, you don't need sealant anywhere except between crankcase halves where appropriate.

 

[Guest]

I had to have the head gasket replaced in my car engine, and did a bit of internet research before OKing the work. All car makers had problems with head gasket failures when they first used aluminum heads on cast iron blocks, due to the different thermal expansion rates. Various methods were tried, and the permanent fix turned out to be the multi-layer steel gasket. Several very thin layers of steel, separated by thin layers of other composite materials, are built up into a gasket. The various steel and composite layers are often different chemically and physically. The final gasket surface is coated with a material designed to fill in the surface imperfections in the block and the cylinder head. Still, the block and cylinder head both must be flatter and smoother than when old design gaskets are used. When everything is done properly, head gasket failures are almost eliminated. On my car, the heads were slightly planed and polished for best sealing.

Another example of changes in one area (lighter material for cylinder heads to reduce weight and fuel consumption) requires different technology in another area.

 

[bucketsofgs1000]

Are you saying that the standard "fiber" head gasket that came in my gasket set (I forget who made it but it was not worth the savings at ~$60 for a complete engine gasket set) is just an old technology and that if I can find a multi-layer steel gasket it may be better? The bulk of the block on this bike is aluminum though, I'm not sure the thermal expansion rate differences are really an issue with just iron/steel sleeves and an aluminum head are they?

 

[bucketsofgs1000]

Maybe its not my head gasket at all. Now that I keep seeing posts about the valve cover gaskets leaking like crazy, I wonder if I'm just seeing that leaking all over my head , running down the front and getting caught between the fins at the head gasket. I know the VC gasket leaks, but was ignoring it for now as I was concerned with my head gasket. I keep reading posts about silicone VC gaskets and think I will try one before ripping the head back off the bike. Anyway, just another thought on this.

 

[Guest]

From what I've read, the MLS gaskets might be worse unless a machine shop verifies that the surfaces are very flat and very smooth. MLS gaskets were designed to fix a problem that shouldn't exist in an aluminum engine.

 

[bucketsofgs1000]

It IS the head gasket

It IS the head gasket

I found my leak. I cleaned off the bike then took it for a hell of a ride and looked at it while running to find this image. I see little bubbles leaving the head gasket from the interface between the gasket and the head right at the forward, starboard head bolt. Take a look. I'll replace the gasket when I buy a house and get a shop of my own... hopefully the end of this summer.

 

[ron bayless]

I found my leak. I cleaned off the bike then took it for a hell of a ride and looked at it while running to find this image. I see little bubbles leaving the head gasket from the interface between the gasket and the head right at the forward, starboard head bolt. Take a look. I'll replace the gasket when I buy a house and get a shop of my own... hopefully the end of this summer.

That is where they all leak,mine is leaking there,thats why i have it torn apart.I am using a vesrah gasket on everyones recommendation.I understand the torqueing,warm up cool down and retorue the next day concept.it may be why we all have releaks after doing all the work anywhere from 800 miles to 2 years later.I am going to follow this advice this time.Also,if you pull the head,pull the block and replace that gasket also.If you already know this i apologize.Ron b

 

[steely]

Mine was leaking at the same point (at least I assume it was, my left jeans leg was getting oil stained). I have the motor torn down to the crank case at the moment and have all of the parts that I can off to the powder coaters. I plan to have a completely black motor when I get it back together.