Pods and jetting questions

[Smokinapankake]

I've done mucho searches and have gotten to the point where I don't know what I've learned and I don't know what I don't know.

84 Katana 750 has been having some carb issues. Plugs are all wet. This is without any air filter in the stock airbox. Carbs are clean (been through them twice). Idles ok, but when you give it some gas it bogs down, like it's not getting enough air. And the plugs are still wet. I backed out the air screws to 3 turns out and that helped a tiny bit (negligible, really) and the plugs are still wet. Voltage to the coils is 12.62v, I do get bright spark on all 4 so I don't think its that.

So I thought I'd check the intake boot O-rings. Problem was, no way to get to them with the stock airbox on. And the damm philips head screws were not moving. So to get my impact driver on them I need to remove the airbox. But the airbox doesn't come out unless the intake boots are off the bike. Or the engine is out of the frame and that is NOT happening.

You can guess where this is going.

Needless to say, reusing the stock airbox is no longer an option.
I don't need a lecture about the stupidity of this move, BTW.

Intake boot O-rings are rock hard and will be replaced.

So I've ordered some pod filters (Emgo - no way am I dropping 30-ish bucks each for K&N's) to hopefully provide some filtration. Hopefully I can make this work with the stock exhaust because its sooo pretty being all black chrome an stuff...[-o< Nor do I need or want a lecture about how crappy Emgo pod filters are. I've used them in the past and had good results.

Any suggestions as to where to put my carb guts? I understand I should probably get a Dynojet kit but what all does it entail? Do I need to drill jets, move the clips, change pilots, what else? And I really hope I don't have to replace the exhaust....

 

[ohgoodtimes]

I can't really help you here, but i do have a bike that is having a very similar problem. Had the carbs rebuilt the air box was removed, with it on there is no chance of it starting. Choke isnt even needed to start. Will run for a short trip then the plugs foul and there is no power under 3000 rpms. This is a 91 fzr 600, so it has a fuel pump. But i am going to be checking the valves, fuel delivery and anything thing else that is recomended on this thread

 

[Junkie]

Honestly, it's possible that you won't need the jet kit. If it's already running pretty rich, maybe the pods will lean it out enough.

Try it before you spend money...

 

[Smokinapankake]

That's what I'm thinking too. Just wondering what all is involved as the kits from Dennis Kirk lists them at $119.00. Seems like a bit much to spend for some new needles and jets.....

 

[Ozmiander]

That's what I'm thinking too. Just wondering what all is involved as the kits from Dennis Kirk lists them at $119.00. Seems like a bit much to spend for some new needles and jets.....

The dynojet kits are pricey, but make jetting a pretty painless procedure.

 

[don_gibb6512]

Voltage to the coils is good but what's the resistance of the coils primary and secondary windings ? That's what you need to check for on the coils. A bad set of coils will create symptoms that mimic carb problems.

IMHO, the Dynojet kit is way overpriced. Drilling the slide lift holes should be a last resort when changing jet sizes and adjusting needle height just isn't enough to smooth out the midrange. Check out www.factorypro.com for an alternative to the Dynojet kit. You need an adjustable slide needle, one with clip positions and the taper should match what is recommended for your bike.

Have you checked float height and if your floats are working properly? i.e. not getting hung up and sticking? Do your float needles have grooves on the taper? They really need to be smooth to close properly. What about the seats? When you cleaned your carbs did you replace the O rings? That's easily overlooked and a cheap fix. What about fuel delivery? Is your petcock working properly?

I've never used the Emgo filters but I've not heard good things about them. I have the K&N pods. I know a lot of guys say stick with the OEM air box but I hate it. Pods are so much easier to work with and I like the way they look on the bike.

Good luck.

 

[Ozmiander]

I've never used the Emgo filters but I've not heard good things about them. I have the K&N pods. I know a lot of guys say stick with the OEM air box but I hate it. Pods are so much easier to work with and I like the way they look on the bike.

I had EMGOs on my GT380, they were a pita.

 

[Smokinapankake]

How do I check the coil windings? I know I have spark, as I've grounded the plug on the frame and when I crank the motor I can see spark (in the garage, door wide open, midday). I know I have fuel as the plugs are wet.

The slide needles are adjustable. Clips and grooves. The bike was intended for the Japanese domestic market, never imported to the states. Guy I bought it from brought it back from Japan when he returned from a tour of duty in the military.

Float heights are set correctly. Floats operate smoothly. Needles and seats are smooth and pretty. O-rings are new.
Petcock leaks a little bit, but not enough to cause any real problems. My oil doesn't smell like gas so I don't think its leaking all that bad.

Before I ripped out the airbox it would fire immediately and idle after maybe 2-3 mins. of warmup. Give it a litle throttle and she bogs down like not enough air or not enough fuel.

I'm at a loss. I put the pieces all together this morning: Air filters, intake boot o-rings and now the damm thing won't even fire, let alone idle. I would think that if you had all 3 (fuel, air, spark) it would at least fire. I'm starting to think I may have timing issues. I don't see how that could be because it would idle before. I did pull the cam chain tensioner in an effort to gain some room to get the airbox out, but I never moved the motor while it was out. I reinstalled it according to my GS1000 manual (the tensioners are basically the same) so I don't see how it could have skipped a tooth or two....

Maybe I should just sell the pile and be done with it.

 

[uudfourty]

Don't give up man.
It's just a machine. It doesn't hate you or have a grudge against you, it just hasn't had the right screw turned yet.

Let your rage be as a monkey in a pinata.

 

[doctorgonzo]

That's what I'm thinking too. Just wondering what all is involved as the kits from Dennis Kirk lists them at $119.00. Seems like a bit much to spend for some new needles and jets.....

Been said, many times, it's more than needles and jets, it's the research that allows them to say "change the jet to this, shim the needle like this, turn the screws to this" and when you start the bike it will be 95% perfectly jetted. You can get there on your own. You're paying for not spending hours experimenting to try and get the right combination.

 

[don_gibb6512]

How do I check the coil windings? I know I have spark, as I've grounded the plug on the frame and when I crank the motor I can see spark (in the garage, door wide open, midday). I know I have fuel as the plugs are wet.


Because you have spark doesn't mean it's strong enough. Set your meter on Ohms. Primary: connect between the leads of the coil. Should be 3-5 ohm. Secondary: connect between the plug caps, 2-3 and 1-4. Should be 31-33k for OEM.



The slide needles are adjustable. Clips and grooves. The bike was intended for the Japanese domestic market, never imported to the states. Guy I bought it from brought it back from Japan when he returned from a tour of duty in the military.


Cool. No need to change needles then.


Float heights are set correctly. Floats operate smoothly. Needles and seats are smooth and pretty. O-rings are new.
Petcock leaks a little bit, but not enough to cause any real problems. My oil doesn't smell like gas so I don't think its leaking all that bad.


Excellent but the petcock shouldn't leak at all.


Before I ripped out the airbox it would fire immediately and idle after maybe 2-3 mins. of warmup. Give it a litle throttle and she bogs down like not enough air or not enough fuel.


No airbox means you have plenty of air. Plugs being wet means either way too much fuel, wrong mixture or very weak to no spark.



I'm at a loss. I put the pieces all together this morning: Air filters, intake boot o-rings and now the damm thing won't even fire, let alone idle. I would think that if you had all 3 (fuel, air, spark) it would at least fire. I'm starting to think I may have timing issues. I don't see how that could be because it would idle before. I did pull the cam chain tensioner in an effort to gain some room to get the airbox out, but I never moved the motor while it was out. I reinstalled it according to my GS1000 manual (the tensioners are basically the same) so I don't see how it could have skipped a tooth or two....


If the motor didn't move, you didn't skip a tooth. If you're getting spark, the ignition module is working. You haven't said if you're running with the OEM coils. If you are, then there's a good bet that's your problem.


Maybe I should just sell the pile and be done with it.

Frustration can be like that. Walk away from it for awhile and chill. Let me know what the coil resistance is and we'll go from there.

Don

 

[Smokinapankake]

Don,

Thanks for the advice. I have decided to step away at least until tonight. Getting tired of taking the tank on and off over and over.

Yes, they're OEM coils. I put an Accel Supercoil kit on my Kawi GPz and that seemed to help it; many here will tell you its snake oil. I'll check the coils resistance and post updates tonight.

Thanks again - I'm not ready to sell yet. Especially since I haven't ever really ridden the damm thing other than around the block.

 

[Smokinapankake]

I even tried new plugs thinking they may be weak, however I find it hard to believe that all 4 would go weak at the same time.

 

[doctorgonzo]

I even tried new plugs thinking they may be weak, however I find it hard to believe that all 4 would go weak at the same time.

I've had it be the plug caps before. They tested the right resistance, but a cap replacement fixed the problem. Also, if you have OEM coils then you have OEM wires, which might be old, cracked, etc... the biggest benefit of aftermarket coils is the ability to replace the wires.

 

[Junkie]

Don,

Thanks for the advice. I have decided to step away at least until tonight. Getting tired of taking the tank on and off over and over.

Yes, they're OEM coils. I put an Accel Supercoil kit on my Kawi GPz and that seemed to help it; many here will tell you its snake oil. I'll check the coils resistance and post updates tonight.

Thanks again - I'm not ready to sell yet. Especially since I haven't ever really ridden the damm thing other than around the block.

Take a 2L bottle of coke. cut a hole in the bottom to fill it through and to let air escape. put a fitting on the cap for the fuel line. use that instead of your gas tank when you're doing carb work.

 

[don_gibb6512]

Don,

Thanks for the advice. I have decided to step away at least until tonight. Getting tired of taking the tank on and off over and over.

Yes, they're OEM coils. I put an Accel Supercoil kit on my Kawi GPz and that seemed to help it; many here will tell you its snake oil. I'll check the coils resistance and post updates tonight.

Thanks again - I'm not ready to sell yet. Especially since I haven't ever really ridden the damm thing other than around the block.

I had a set of Accel Supercoils. They went bad within a couple of years and I never once thought the problems I started having could have been related to them because they were still shiny, for crying out loud. I spent too much money and time trying to get similar problems to what you're experiencing figured out until I got so frustrated that instead of just walking away, I tore the bike apart and stashed it in my shed. HUGE mistake. I put the Accel coils on another bike I picked up and couldn't make it around the block twice before it shut off. Just shut right down. That's when I metered the coils and found out they were bad. Boy, did I feel like an idiot for not checking them sooner. I bought a pair of the green Dyna 3ohm coils and a set of Dyna wires and caps and never looked back. Bike runs great. No more worry about weak spark and fouled plugs because of ignition. Yeee-haaa !!!

If you have that GPz, meter those Accel coils and if they're 3ohm, you might as well swap them out just for testing on your Suzi and see if that makes a difference. Couldn't hurt.

Good luck.

Don

 

[Smokinapankake]

Don,

I rode that GPz for a couple of years then sold it to finance the repair of my 82 Katana 1000. All in all it was one of the best motorcycles I've ever owned and I regret selling it. Never had any problems with the coils, and many of my drag racing buddies swear by them. At the time I bought them the kit was 160 bucks; I see now they're about 185.

In fact, I do have some of the green Dyna coils on my 82 Kat, I may try swapping them over just for kicks....
I'll meter those OEM coils anyway just to see what they read.

Thanks again!

 

[beachbum3478]

iv had similar symptoms as you with my gs1100. i got the bike without an airbox and i couldnt get to run right at all without the airbox. i put the airbox on and it solved my problem. i have cv carbs. i guess they need a restriction in order to operate the slides propererly. so since you were running without a filter there was no restriction.

 

[Smokinapankake]

Here's what we have - Primary windings read 4.4 ohms resistance.
Secondaries read: 1&4 - 54.4 2&3 - 36.4. Nothing wrong with my coils, I don't think.
Any other suggestions?

When I get some time I may swap over the Dyna coils I have and see if it makes any difference. I doubt it will.

I would think it would at least fire and run like crap at the very worst.....

 

[don_gibb6512]

Well, that's one more thing out of the way. Hmmm. Continuity check on all connections. Ground wire checks. Do you still have the clutch engagement switch and side stand cut off switch on the bike? If you do, you might want to temporarily route those so that they're out of the circuit. Make it so that it's as if the stand is always up and the clutch is always pulled in. Yeah, I'm running out of ideas. If the plugs are getting wet with gas, it's either a wrong emulsion mixture (too much gas) or no spark. Is it possible at all that the exhaust would be plugged up? That never occurred to me until now but you mentioned that you've never taken this bike for a ride yet and I'm wondering if something didn't get in there. I know that's a stretch but I'm grasping for anything now.