quick starter relay question

[chuckycheese]

2Bracing--->
Chucky--> I still think my first solenoid is bad (no volts on the starter side with button pressed), and after I go through the whole system I'll see where things are at.

Well, it might be but I haven't changed my mind, as of yet! If you're now getting power on the 'starter side', that's all the more reason so try a different power source to see if your starter is working properly. Try the easy stuff first; after awhile, you'll figure out why that's a good idea.

Oh, and listen to Posplayr.....he knows what he's talking about when it comes to electrics!

 

[cableguy]

One step closer to goodness

One step closer to goodness

This is the back of the r/r. I cleaned the contacts but I think the connector plug is trashed so I crimped new insulated females and marked on the r/r which goes where. Of course I can use the old plug if need be. This could very well have been contributing to the wierdness going on. Now on to checking every other connection, then stator check and see what happens. I did have the battery checked, and even though one cell was low, it tested good under load. I might have caught this in time.

 

[JEEPRUSTY]

Actually, that only tells you that the coil in the solenoid is working.

The contacts that actually 'make' the circuit to the starter could be bad, not allowing current to flow, even though you hear the "click".




See my message just above. Yes, you can get the "click" without getting voltage on the output terminal. It's rare, but still possible.

.

 

[cableguy]

Cleaned up ready for testing

 

[posplayr]

Cleaned up ready for testing

well it looks pretty, but the proof will be in the voltage drop measurements . It doesn't really look like you etched those spades. Did they get any dielectric grease?

 

[posplayr]

This is the back of the r/r. I cleaned the contacts but I think the connector plug is trashed so I crimped new insulated females and marked on the r/r which goes where. Of course I can use the old plug if need be. This could very well have been contributing to the wierdness going on. Now on to checking every other connection, then stator check and see what happens. I did have the battery checked, and even though one cell was low, it tested good under load. I might have caught this in time.

Just so you guys know, seeing this picture (the long neglected green corroded contacts on Red with the obvious heat damage) is the equivalent of dumping sand into your valve cover.

It is lucky if it did not damage the battery, stator as well as the R/R

 

[cableguy]

I used a wire brush to clean them but the grease will go on after I do the stator test, just to be less messy. I was going to test the stator from here but maybe I'll grease them and test from the other end. That way Ill know that those connections are good.

 

[cableguy]

The more you look the more you find......

The more you look the more you find......

OK I finally had some this morning to check things out, and found more signs of previous-owner-itis.

This was the plug to the igniter. All that covered these twists was 2 turns of electrical tape.

Next, I found and deleted the harness extension wires from the stator to the r/r. Now the stator runs directly to the r/r. One of the factory connectors seemed loose but now is not an issue. Then I inspected/repairedevery other wire and connector. I removed the starter and the positive wire and found this crispy critter. It wasn't totally burnt inside but now I think starting to get an idea of where my problem is

IMG]

Tested the starter by hooking up to 12v power source and found that it turned pretty slow with a sligt grinding sound, then when I tapped it with a hammer the shaft Rpms tripled. Took apart the starter and found a really burnt smell but I'm not sure if this looks bad or not. I don't know what bad looks like but connections look good and brushes/commutator look OK (?)

Ideas for what next? I was thinking a rebuild kit at the very least but what else should I check?

 

[2BRacing]

You're doing well to check all wires and fix poor connections. Your "before" photos should be recorded in a manual for "How NOT to do electrics!" and added to BassCliff's site - wow, just about the worst condition of R/R connections I've ever seen, as well as just "twisted together and taped" connections. Nice job on replacing connectors and doing the job properly.

I'm not an expert, but on your starter, the bushes/bearings could be worn. At first glance the armature does not look too bad - clean up the copper part where the brushes run and "undercut" between the copper segments with a hacksaw blade. The burnt smell you noted might come from the field coils (which are not in your photo). You may find tests in the workshop manual.

EDIT: Did not see your other thread on starter rebuild before I posted this.

 

[cableguy]

I did clean the armature with emory cloth, and that is now shiny. I don't think a hacksaw will fit in between, but I'll definitely clean out the spaces in between.

Field coils? Is that what the armature fits into? I did clean that out with a rag, and as far as I can tell there's no damage.

 

[46hand]

You may have already looked at this, but based on some of the symptoms listed, I'd look at the main termination from the battery (-). Mine was holding on by just a couple strands while I was troubleshooting the electricals, right after going for a very short ride. I replaced the old solenoid, heard a "click" but got no rotation, got smoke, had odd voltages, all kinds of craziness. When I gently pulled the (-) cable to inspect its termination point, it actually came off the bike! Replaced, landed and now everything seems to be working properly (though I have yet to do the stator papers! This weekend). And I would say that, if you find it to be in any kind of "not-so-great" shape, replace it with an oversized cable from sears for $4. Worth the investment. A crappy (-) will cause lots and lots of other problems.

 

[cableguy]

I found an auto electric shop who will put the armature on the growler for comprehensive testing, then I'll know beyond a doubt where I stand before I put it back together.

Is it worth the $20 or is checking the resistance values enough to know it's good? I got 0 resistance between each of the adjacent brush surfaces as well as the field (?) surfaces, and infinite when I put one lead on the brush contact surface and the other on the main shaft of the armature.

 

[2BRacing]

Just testing resistance values should be good enough to test the armature (this is procedure used in workshop manual - it says: "check the armature for short circuit by putting one lead on the rotor core and the other lead on each segment of the copper commutator in turn. Test for open circuit by placing the leads on any two segments. The brushes must not be on the commutator for these tests). If you do not already have a manual for your bike, refer to one on BassCliff's site - the principle is the same for all sizes. These tests are described under "Starter System" of the Electrical System.

However, the "really burnt smell" you noticed when taking the starter apart could be from the field coils (in the casing of the starter motor). The manual does not show tests for the field coils. Maybe someone on here can indicate how to do that test, before you go to the auto electric shop, because I don't think the growler test (of only the armature) will give you the full picture (i.e. state of field coils), unless they can test the whole unit for you.

 

[cableguy]

I did test the armature and commutator and they passed. I took it the auto electric place anyway, because they are able to check the field coils, and for the fact that it smells burnt. Worth $20 to know where it stands. BTW everything tested OK.

 

[2BRacing]

Great to hear starter tests OK. Burnt smell probably from some overheating due to all those bad connections. Now that you have worked through the whole electrical system, you are ready to see how she runs!

 

[cableguy]

That would be true, but I've expanded my project a tad to include swapping in the Ducati spring I got a while back, and performing a nitpick cleaning so when I put it all back together It can stay together for a while.

 

[chuckycheese]

Getting it figured out

Getting it figured out

I think you are now well on your way to getting it figured out. Do you still think you had a bad solenoid???

 

[cableguy]

haha I wondered if you would ask that....I haven't put it back together yet. I realized that this is the perfect time to really clean everything, and while the battery box is out clean that up and paint it, clean and degrease everything, change the rear spring, then reassemble and test. While the tank is off I may fix the dent and repaint it, The bug kind of bit me to get as much done in one shot as possible. Don't worry, if the old solenoid is good I'll admit it. Actually I'll use it, because my tester from Lowe's sticks out a little too far and I don't want the side cover to crack.