R/R Help... Just need confirmation!!! Help!

[djscottymiami]

When its isolated, its trying to charge "nothing", so the phase's voltage can go up very fast. This makes the SCR trigger WAY too soon. (the firing angle approaches zero degrees) After that, the SCR clamps till the phase reverses. So that phase basically doesn't charge at all ...
The other phase(s) do
The meter tries to average the undefined pulsing output.

Basically, you really can't get meaningful information with the red wire disconnected (without at least a scope, and even then ...)



You really can't say anything about it either way with what you've written so far.



The disconnected readings mean absolutely nothing.



You've had one bad connection. To me, that makes all the rest suspect too. You can't even begin to troubleshoot till thats taken care of.

Makes sense about the voltage with the wire not hooked up. I'll check the R/R for heat tonight when it is running to see how hot it does get. I'll re-do the electrical connections or at least test them.

Anyone know where I can get a new-style fuse block? I'd really like to upgrade.

I'll post an update when I can.


Marc

 

[doctorgonzo]

Makes sense about the voltage with the wire not hooked up. I'll check the R/R for heat tonight when it is running to see how hot it does get. I'll re-do the electrical connections or at least test them.

Anyone know where I can get a new-style fuse block? I'd really like to upgrade.

I'll post an update when I can.


Marc

Got mine for $7.99 at Auto Zone. There is a write up on replacement in the "Tips and Tricks" Forum. The $7.99 model will have the circuits "ganged" together for a single hot, so you run a separate wire with an ATC fuse inline for the "always on" hot that went to your old box. The old fuse block will have a hot wire that is orange. It powers the lights, instrument panel, etc... you'll wire these through your new fuse block. Your old fuse block also has a hot wire that is the main line between the battery and the R/R unit. It gets the inline fuse. Look at the write up in the other forum.

 

[djscottymiami]

I would start by going over every connection in the charging path ...
Stator to R/R
R/R to fuse box
inside of fuse box at main fuse
fusebox to battery positive
R/R to battery neg (looks like you've done that one ...)

- Re-did the connectors between the stator and regulator/rectifier with spade terminals.

- Re-did the regulator/rectifier to fuse box connection with spade terminals

- Checked inside of fuse box at main fuse. Checked resistance between wire and fuse block and its ~0.2ohms. Found a loose wire in the back and re-soldered it.

- Cleaned the connection on the starter relay

- Turned the ignition switch to 'ON' then checked continuity between the RED wire going to the ignition switch and the fuse block that is switched from the ignition. The continuity is ~0.2ohms so that's good.

- Cleaned ALL of the fuse holders with an abrasive stick (sandpaper in bar form if you will for electrical contact cleaning).


Voltages (ballpark... i didnt bring a pen outside so this is off the top of my head.... dont quote them as being actual):

Bike Off: 12.6V
Bike running (idle): 12.5V
Bike running (some throttle): 12.4ish volts.

Also note that these voltages depend on how charged my battery is when I start off... It was higher when I started out this evening with a charged battery but went down as I tested it.

The voltage appears to go down when the bike has some throttle. An electrician that I work with came to look at it (he wants me to go out for a ride with him so he wants me to get er running! \\/) and noticed that the voltage goes down. He thought it might be a partial short but if it was i'd expect the battery voltage to go down when the ignition is 'ON' and the bike is not running. I checked the R/R when it was idling and it was slightly warm.

What other connections can I check Martin? This is really starting to get annoying. The more I look at it, the more i'm starting to think it is the R/R but i'd like to be proved wrong.

ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH](*,)](*,)](*,)

 

[posplayr]

Use the volt meter not the ohm meter

Use the volt meter not the ohm meter

- Turned the ignition switch to 'ON' then checked continuity between the RED wire going to the ignition switch and the fuse block that is switched from the ignition. The continuity is ~0.ohms so that's good.

- Cleaned ALL of the fuse holders with an abrasive stick (sandpaper in bar form if you will for electrical contact cleaning).


Voltages (ballpark... i didn't bring a pen outside so this is off the top of my head.... dont quote them as being actual):

Bike Off: 12.6V
Bike running (idle): 12.5V
Bike running (some throttle): 12.4ish volts.

OK Some simple EE; If you have 0.2 ohms between your R/R and your battery on the plus side, and there is about 10 amps being generated at 4000 RPM, then you are looking at a 2.0 volt drop with a stock 5 wire R/R (i.e. no sense voltage lead as the Honda R/R has).

You have to check the resistance by checking for voltage drop not using an ohm meter. Yes I know in theory it should be the same, but but given the electrical parameters (12 volts, 10 amps ), it is hard to insure that your resistance is in the 0.01-0.02 ohm range (where it should be and no more than 0.05 ohms !!!).

So unless you have a very accurate ohm meter, measure the voltage between R/R and battery on both the positive and negative sides. I know it is supposed to be just a stick of wire, but it is most likely showing more than 1 volt on the plus side and 0.5 volts on he negative (at least).

Also pay careful attention to the polarity of the voltage drops. You should have a voltage drop (0.25-0.5V max at 4000 RPM) going from the R/R + to the BAT + ; that means the R/R is charging the sysyetm. If it is negative, it is most likely the R/R is toast.

Posplayr

 

[djscottymiami]

So unless you have a very accurate ohm meter, measure the voltage between R/R and battery on both the positive and negative sides. I know it is supposed to be just a stick of wire, but it is most likely showing more than 1 volt on the plus side and 0.5 volts on he negative (at least).

I've got a Fluke 179... and from their website:

Resistance Accuracy* ? (0.9%+1) Max. Resolution 0.1 Ω Maximum 50 MΩ

I'd say its probably overkill compared to most peoples' meters.


POSPLAYR:
Just out of curiosity i dragged my meter out to the garage with me before I left for work today on the bike.

I hooked up the NEGATIVE lead of the meter to the output (red) wire from the R/R. I hooked up the POSITIVE lead of the meter to the battery positive. I got approximately 0.02 or 0.002 volts (Very low voltage and it was POSITIVE).

Just to see if I had a good connection to the R/R output I went to the battery negative terminal and got my 12ish volts.

My R/R sounds like it's not charging as there is no voltage differential?

 

[posplayr]

Sparks and Magic

Sparks and Magic

I've got a Fluke 179... and from their website:

Resistance Accuracy* ? (0.9%+1) Max. Resolution 0.1 Ω Maximum 50 MΩ

That is a good quality Field meter, but as you have found the resolution is only 0.1 ohms. So as per the previous 10 amp output example, 0.1 ohms would yield 1 volt drop, 0.2 ohms would yield 2.0 volts drop and so on. So clearly using this ohm meter is not viable for determining resistance between the battery and the R/R . You need to use the volt meter function instead. 8-[

I hooked up the NEGATIVE lead of the meter to the output (red) wire from the R/R. I hooked up the POSITIVE lead of the meter to the battery positive. I got approximately 0.02 or 0.002 volts (Very low voltage and it was POSITIVE).

You are looking at some pretty low voltages so did you confirm the polarity reversed in the meter when you reversed the test leads?

Also stab the center of the + battery post and don't touch the clamping battery connector. This way you are measuring the drop across the battery terminals as well.

Also confirm the voltage at 4000 RPM as this is really when the charging system is being tested.

Assuming you did all of this then I would say that your system is NOT CHARGING. Next question is why not....:-s

Just to see if I had a good connection to the R/R output I went to the battery negative terminal and got my 12ish volts.

My R/R sounds like it's not charging as there is no voltage differential?

Sorry, I have not followed this entire thread, so this maybe a repeat. Assuming you checked the stator output and are getting 60-80 VAC, then you should be seeing something coming out of the R/R.

Assuming you have stator output, the only other thing to insure is that the R/R output is not only tied to Battery negative, but also chassis ground. Assuming you have all of this then I would recommend swapping out the R/R. If you dont already have one it would be worth getting a Honda 6 wire unit.

Based on your previous readings you posted of 12.6-12.4 volts and declining, it sounds like you are just running on the battery and there is no charging going on. The slight positive voltage drop from R/R to Battery (battery higher) says that the battery is supplying the R/R output which is clearly not charging.

A note just to be clear for anybody else reading this thread: while ideally the battery to R/R positive terminals should be at the same potential (i.e. no resistance between them), this is practically an impossibility and some resistance >0.1 ohms (equivalent to less than 1.0 volts but should be less than 0.25 volts) always exists. We can take advantage of this parasitic resistance, by insuring that the voltage drop has the proper polarity and that the current flow when we are supposed to be charging (e.g. 4000 RPM) is dropping from R/R to battery (i.e. current flows from R/R to battery).

dsscotty, yours is indicating a discharge from the battery into the R/R output. With some stator output the R/R is the most likely culprit should be swapped out.

Posplayr

 

[MikeG]

[piggybacking on this thread]

I have a Shindengen r/r that says 5.9 on it. It has the wiring harness and a couple feet of good wire coming off that. Is there any reason not to use the harness? I'm thinking with some heat shring and dielectric grease, that's about as good a connection as I'm likely to get.

 

[djscottymiami]

That is a good quality Field meter, but as you have found the resolution is only 0.1 ohms. So as per the previous 10 amp output example, 0.1 ohms would yield 1 volt drop, 0.2 ohms would yield 2.0 volts drop and so on. So clearly using this ohm meter is not viable for determining resistance between the battery and the R/R . You need to use the volt meter function instead. 8-[



You are looking at some pretty low voltages so did you confirm the polarity reversed in the meter when you reversed the test leads?

Also stab the center of the + battery post and don't touch the clamping battery connector. This way you are measuring the drop across the battery terminals as well.

Also confirm the voltage at 4000 RPM as this is really when the charging system is being tested.

Assuming you did all of this then I would say that your system is NOT CHARGING. Next question is why not....:-s




Sorry, I have not followed this entire thread, so this maybe a repeat. Assuming you checked the stator output and are getting 60-80 VAC, then you should be seeing something coming out of the R/R.

Assuming you have stator output, the only other thing to insure is that the R/R output is not only tied to Battery negative, but also chassis ground. Assuming you have all of this then I would recommend swapping out the R/R. If you dont already have one it would be worth getting a Honda 6 wire unit.

Based on your previous readings you posted of 12.6-12.4 volts and declining, it sounds like you are just running on the battery and there is no charging going on. The slight positive voltage drop from R/R to Battery (battery higher) says that the battery is supplying the R/R output which is clearly not charging.

A note just to be clear for anybody else reading this thread: while ideally the battery to R/R positive terminals should be at the same potential (i.e. no resistance between them), this is practically an impossibility and some resistance >0.1 ohms (equivalent to less than 1.0 volts but should be less than 0.25 volts) always exists. We can take advantage of this parasitic resistance, by insuring that the voltage drop has the proper polarity and that the current flow when we are supposed to be charging (e.g. 4000 RPM) is dropping from R/R to battery (i.e. current flows from R/R to battery).

dsscotty, yours is indicating a discharge from the battery into the R/R output. With some stator output the R/R is the most likely culprit should be swapped out.

Posplayr

I'll check the polarity reversal tonight when I get home with a fully charged battery (I put the key to 'PARK' in the ignition and 4 hours later I noticed that my rear light was left on.. so the battery is probably drained... it cranked over so it'll probably start when I get there).

I'm most likely going to be looking at replacing the R/R then if it's not charging. I'll do the test at 4000rpm as well as suggested above and see.. and i'll actually bring a pen out to the garage and write stuff down this time! :-D

 

[djscottymiami]

Ok, Here's the voltages that I have (red text = where my red multimeter lead was) :


BIKE OFF:
Battery: 12.25V
RR to Batt. (-): 12.25V
RR to Batt. (+): 0


IGNITION ON:
Battery: 11.93V
RR to Batt (-): 11.71V
RR to Batt (+): -0.2V
RR to Batt (-): -11.68V
RR to Batt (+): 0.207V



Bike Idle:
Battery: 12.21V
RR to Batt (-): 12.25
RR to Batt (+): 0.03
RR to Batt (-): -12.25
RR to Batt (+): -0.03


Bike Revved (4k rpm):
Battery: 12.13V
RR to Batt (-): 12.19V
RR to Batt (+): 0.013V
RR to Batt (-): -12.19V
RR to Batt (+): -0.02V

Bike back to OFF:
Battery: 12.18V
RR to Batt (-): 12.18V
RR to Batt (+): 0V


Bike is on the charger now.. hope this helps someone in helping me figure this stupid **** out. I'm getting ****ed off now.

 

[bakalorz]

I'll check the polarity reversal tonight when I get home with a fully charged battery (I put the key to 'PARK' in the ignition and 4 hours later I noticed that my rear light was left on.. so the battery is probably drained... it cranked over so it'll probably start when I get there).

I'm most likely going to be looking at replacing the R/R then if it's not charging. I'll do the test at 4000rpm as well as suggested above and see.. and i'll actually bring a pen out to the garage and write stuff down this time! :-D

You might also want to try the test posplayer suggested on the ground side.
Check to see how much voltage there is, testing between the black wire at the R/R and the negative post of the battery.

But its starting to look like your R/R is shot.
By the way, I wasn't trying to suggest that it absolutely wasn't at the beginning of the thread ... just that there were more things to rule out before you spent money on a new one.

 

[djscottymiami]

You might also want to try the test posplayer suggested on the ground side.
Check to see how much voltage there is, testing between the black wire at the R/R and the negative post of the battery.

But its starting to look like your R/R is shot.
By the way, I wasn't trying to suggest that it absolutely wasn't at the beginning of the thread ... just that there were more things to rule out before you spent money on a new one.

The black wire of the RR is already at the negative battery post. Didnt make a difference from where it was before.

No worries... I'm stubborn and don't take no for an answer easily either

 

[posplayr]

A little unusual to say the least

A little unusual to say the least

But assuming that your stator is putting out 60-80 VAC, then the R/R must be toast.

The measurements don't make a whole lot of sense, you do have the test leads plugged into the plugs on the right side of the meter looking at the face right?

OK going on the data at hand and assuming you are reading it correctly, some observations:

* With ignition on your battery is supplying power to the R/R (i.e. the (+) battery is higher voltage than the R/R (+)). As I recall that indicates significant current flow back through what should be reverse biased diodes in the R/R; I think this is too much current. Micro amps should be flowing not amps to produce a 0.2 volt difference.

* At idle the bike is charging barely enough to supply the ignition and what ever else is on. See R/R + is 0.03 volts above the battery and the battery is back to the voltage when the bike is off (big effort for the charging system I guess). You could still have bad connections, but there is so little current coming from the R/R you cant tell :shock:.

* At 4000 RPM the R/R is still producing some current albeit very small and the battery voltage has actually dropped from idle, so it is producing something but not much.

* Coming back to off, the net effect of the cycle is there is less charge in your battery as indicated by the lower voltage.

Basically your R/R is putting out a feeble charging current and actually drawing current when the ignition is off. This is entirely contrary to how the diode bride should be operating and so it is probably toast.

You should not be able to sink current from the battery as you indicated in the ignition on test.

The R/R doesn't seem to supply any current indicating that the diode bridge is unable to supply output current, possibly because it is damaged as also indicated above.

At some point with electrical stuff you stop trying to figure out what is going on and explain all of the observations and you start changing parts. The R/R is primary on the list. Again I'm assuming you have verified proper output voltages of the stator AC. But with the current sink in the ignition on test, pretty much says the R/R is toast.

Swap it out with an OEM version and see if that doesn't fix the problem or go for broke and get the Honda unit .

Posplayr

 

[bakalorz]

But assuming that your stator is putting out 60-80 VAC, then the R/R must be toast. (only conditionally true, see below)

The measurements don't make a whole lot of sense, you do have the test leads plugged into the plugs on the right side of the meter looking at the face right?

OK going on the data at hand and assuming you are reading it correctly, some observations:

* With ignition on your battery is supplying power to the R/R (i.e. the (+) battery is higher voltage than the R/R (+)). As I recall that indicates significant current flow back through what should be reverse biased diodes in the R/R; I think this is too much current. Micro amps should be flowing not amps to produce a 0.2 volt difference.

* At idle the bike is charging barely enough to supply the ignition and what ever else is on. See R/R + is 0.03 volts above the battery and the battery is back to the voltage when the bike is off (big effort for the charging system I guess). You could still have bad connections, but there is so little current coming from the R/R you cant tell :shock:.

* At 4000 RPM the R/R is still producing some current albeit very small and the battery voltage has actually dropped from idle, so it is producing something but not much.

* Coming back to off, the net effect of the cycle is there is less charge in your battery as indicated by the lower voltage.

Basically your R/R is putting out a feeble charging current and actually drawing current when the ignition is off. This is entirely contrary to how the diode bride should be operating and so it is probably toast.

You should not be able to sink current from the battery as you indicated in the ignition on test.

The R/R doesn't seem to supply any current indicating that the diode bridge is unable to supply output current, possibly because it is damaged as also indicated above.

At some point with electrical stuff you stop trying to figure out what is going on and explain all of the observations and you start changing parts. The R/R is primary on the list. Again I'm assuming you have verified proper output voltages of the stator AC. But with the current sink in the ignition on test, pretty much says the R/R is toast.

Swap it out with an OEM version and see if that doesn't fix the problem or go for broke and get the Honda unit .

Posplayr

I kind of agree with the course of action, but disagree with a lot of your analysis above

If the wiring on his bike is like most, the R/R is connected to the battery even when the ignition is off.
So it is not behaving as you seem to think, and a lot of your conclusions are wrong.

I bolded all the stuff above that I consider incorrect (not to offend you, but so you could see which parts I disagree with)

The reason the draw goes up when the ignition is turned on is that the lights and/or igniter are now drawing current, but the R/R was already connected when the ignition was off.

That said, if the connections are not the problem, its almost has to be either the R/R or the stator.
(Regarding the stator ... I believe I rememeber reading that sometimes a stator will produce the right voltage in the no load test, but short out under load)

At this point I would try replacing the R/R first just because it's cheaper and easier to do.
But I would be equally suspicious of the stator.

I would get a honda R/R from Duanage or ebay, don't even bother with an OEM one.

 

[doctorgonzo]

Having re-wired a fuseblock, you are correct. The Stator to the R/R unit to the battery is always on. When you replace a fuseblock with a ganged together ATC one, this has to be made a separate line with an inline fuse. This was also the source of my last R/R failure, too much resistance in that line.

 

[posplayr]

bakalorz

bakalorz

I appreciate your considerably modified tone. I will try and reciprocate.

While you were clear as to what you disagreed with, you are not real clear as to why you disagreed. You seems to assume that most of my conclusions are wrong because I seem to have ignored electrical system loads when the engine is static, but with the ignition on. 8-[

Well I do agree there are other loads than the R/R (that was not an oversight) . When I made the original comments I was assuming that there was a single direct wire between the battery and the R/R (that is how my bike is wired now). If there is a branch point for current as say in the fuse box, then we would get the same measurement as djscotty's observation with a good R/R. The 1 amp flow is to the coils or lights and it is causing the drop. This is an artifact of the harness and not a broken R/R. I dont know if that was your point, but that is certainly possible from what I have seen of the various stock wiring harnesses.

So to clarify my prior comments, I have made an implicit (if not stated explicitly) assumption, that there is a single supply line without branches from the R/R output to the battery connector (and essentially to the post). This wire along with additional parasitic resistance acts as a sensing resistor and monitoring of the voltage polarity will give a good indication of R/R current output.

Now if you bike R/R supplies a portion of the electrical system outside of the fusebox or in some other way there is a branch between the R/R output and then this complicates things and the observations will probably be altered. You have a voltage divider and or two separate sources supply current to the load, so things are more complicated.

I dont know if this answers the issues you have , but it might explain a portion of the points of contention.

Posplayr

 

[djscottymiami]

Update!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Update!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well what a good day it's been.

I got my R/R and my parts from Z1 today! Not bad for shipping from the states last tuesday up to northern canada on the following monday.


I got the R/R installed tonight and I believe I found what I did wrong with my stock R/R:

The ground is a black with white stripe that veers left out of the R/R when you're looking right at it.... Well, I mistook another wire for the R/R ground. Turns out the ground for my R/R went to the far bolt that held the R/R down. Once I took the old R/R out I saw how corroded how the ring connector was. That was most likely my problem (but I would have had to take the old R/R out anyways to find the problem).


The Honda unit that Mr. Duaneage supplied worked like a charm! I've got ~13.5V at idle and it goes up to ~14.4V when it's at 4k rpm. For the first time my gear indicator light doesn't dim when i've got it in neutral and the turn signal on. It's really nice. Getting the old screws and the new bolts in there was a REAL pain in the ass though. Oh well it's done.



MY BIKE IS FIXED... WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE \\/\\/\\/\\/