R/R Replaced Now Battery Draining

[Riding Again]

Fall of 2009 I boiled my battery dry on a long ride home. Determined that I'd lost the stock R/R, I replaced it in 2010 with a Shindengen FH0012AA and went with a Gel Battery. Riding has been few and far between due to major construction on my roads. During the riding season in 2011, I was needing to charge the battery about every tank and a half.

Things I know I need to check:

1) Stator Performance according to the Stator Papers.
2) "Research" replacing all bullet connectors with spade connectors.
3) Does the above include replacing all factory moly connectors with spade connectors?

I'll get to those after I determine if this R/R is wired correctly to the system. I can't remember the logic behind wiring the R/R this way after consulting the R/R thread(s) of Matchless and Posplayr, hence this post.

Here is how I have it currently wired.

What have I a) missed; b) done wrong; or c) need to improve on?

The connecting of the red and green striped white wire was in the r/r papers somewhere, but I'm willing to change it.

 

[posplayr]

Fall of 2009 I boiled my battery dry on a long ride home. Determined that I'd lost the stock R/R, I replaced it in 2010 with a Shindengen FH0012AA and went with a Gel Battery. Riding has been few and far between due to major construction on my roads. During the riding season in 2011, I was needing to charge the battery about every tank and a half.

Things I know I need to check:

1) Stator Performance according to the Stator Papers.
2) "Research" replacing all bullet connectors with spade connectors.
3) Does the above include replacing all factory moly connectors with spade connectors?

I'll get to those after I determine if this R/R is wired correctly to the system. I can't remember the logic behind wiring the R/R this way after consulting the R/R thread(s) of Matchless and Posplayer, hence this post.

Here is how I have it currently wired.

What have I a) missed; b) done wrong; or c) need to improve on?

The connecting of the red and green striped white wire was in the r/r papers somewhere, but I'm willing to change it.

I appreciate you taking the time to draw the schematic as neatly as you have. It is pretty clear except that I don't quite understand what you have retained in terms of the stock wiring or replaced in whole.

For example I don't see the "T" which is should be there unless you rewired the Red output from the R/R directly to the battery.

There is a 550 bobber schematic I did a while back that you could study. The charging system connections should all be the same.

http://www.thegsresources.com/_forum/showthread.php?t=153727&highlight=550+bobber

Without knowing what is stock and what you changed it is hard to say much about the schematic. The grounds look good, but I don't see how the R/R red output connects to the battery.

I also don't thing you needed to jumper the red and green stripped wires. They should be open when you connect the stator directly to the R/R as you have done.

 

[Riding Again]

Posplayr, thanks for answering. I'll study your diagram too.

For clarification:

1) The grounding (black wires) from the R/R is NOT stock. I added these in.

2) The 3 red wire group from the R/R is connected to the stock wires from the R/R output. The yellow and other striped wires remain unchanged from the point of connection.

3) The battery ground wire to the engine was changed from stock (14 or 16 ga) to a beefier wire (10 ga).

4) The connection from R/R to the battery (red wire) is where I suspect I went wrong. The small connection point on the left side of the bike, just in front of the battery with this group of wires (the arrow pointing it out) is where I made the connection. No modifications were made to this group except for jumpering the two striped wires. I made the connection from the R/R to the battery here after tracing the wire via test probing.

I haven't made a direct connection from the R/R to the battery without going through the stock wires.

5) All other wiring (especially that in the looms) remains unchanged.

6) For better or worse, I tried to keep all stock wiring for ease of tracing. It is a long term item to rebuild all wiring and going up 1 gauge size, e.g., 18 to 16). (Slowly accumulating different colors and connector).


At first blush, it looks like I need to do the following:

1) Review your diagram.

2) Disconnect the jumped red and green wires.

3) Place a "T" in the red wire from the R/R to the wire connection in the loom, to have one end continue as shown and the other leg go directly to the battery.

 

[Killer2600]

Posplayr, thanks for answering. I'll study your diagram too.

For clarification:

1) The grounding (black wires) from the R/R is NOT stock. I added these in.

2) The 3 red wire group from the R/R is connected to the stock wires from the R/R output. The yellow and other striped wires remain unchanged from the point of connection.

3) The battery ground wire to the engine was changed from stock (14 or 16 ga) to a beefier wire (10 ga).

4) The connection from R/R to the battery (red wire) is where I suspect I went wrong. The small connection point on the left side of the bike, just in front of the battery with this group of wires (the arrow pointing it out) is where I made the connection. No modifications were made to this group except for jumpering the two striped wires. I made the connection from the R/R to the battery here after tracing the wire via test probing.

I haven't made a direct connection from the R/R to the battery without going through the stock wires.

5) All other wiring (especially that in the looms) remains unchanged.

6) For better or worse, I tried to keep all stock wiring for ease of tracing. It is a long term item to rebuild all wiring and going up 1 gauge size, e.g., 18 to 16). (Slowly accumulating different colors and connector).


At first blush, it looks like I need to do the following:

1) Review your diagram.

2) Disconnect the jumped red and green wires.

3) Place a "T" in the red wire from the R/R to the wire connection in the loom, to have one end continue as shown and the other leg go directly to the battery.

That's not a good idea, the connection between the regulator and the battery needs to be fused which it is at the fuse block in the stock wiring. The diagram you made is a little wrong, the battery (+) makes a direct connection to the fuse block. They may both connect to solenoid before reaching the other but they do not go "through" the solenoid.

Either way I don't see a battery drain issue with the R/R wiring per se, I'd try disconnecting the battery after a ride and see if it still has a good charge the next time you want to take the bike out (when it typically would have need a charge).

 

[Killer2600]

I also don't thing you needed to jumper the red and green stripped wires. They should be open when you connect the stator directly to the R/R as you have done.

For the sake of simplicity, if that's the stator wire that goes to the headlight switch, I'd just leave in the jumper - it won't hurt anything and if the wire is still live in the circuit then it won't mess things up.

 

[tom203]

Riding again said...."What have I a) missed; b) done wrong; or c) need to improve on?

The connecting of the red and green striped white wire was in the r/r papers somewhere, but I'm willing to change it. "

I think you missed some of the basics related to improving the charging system. First, R/R black ground should go to battery negative thru a wire if not direct-do not rely on frame , cuz the R/R needs to "see" the battery clearly; your 10 gauge wire (to engine ground) doesn't do it.
Second, your 3 stator output wires need to go direct to R/R- forget the loop up and back thru headlight switch. The red positive output of R/R can go to harness, and/or to battery positive IF you add an inline fuse. Doing this stuff helps the R/R regulate properly.

 

[posplayr]

posplayr, thanks for answering. I'll study your diagram too.

For clarification:

1) the grounding (black wires) from the r/r is not stock. I added these in.

The primary thing to keep in mind is that all currents supplied by the R/R (+) (to the electrical/battery system) have to return to the R/R(-) . That means that you need to provide a good current return paths for the following currents(to get back to the R/R(-):

1. harness current return path is the black/white harness wire (i don't see you having this connected to the r/r(-). These are normally the ring lugs attached to the harness connected one under the battery box mount and one under the solenoid mount. This sometimes confuses people as these ring lugs actually have current flowing in opposite directions. The ring lug attached to the battery box is to pickup any return currents from electrical devices (e.g. ignitors) and get that current to flow back to the harness and then out the other ring lug to where the R/R(-) is. So you need to make sure that there is a Harness ring lug (with B/W wire)attached to the R/R(-).
2. battery charging current return path - I don't see this you should have a wire direct from the battery(-) to r/r(-)
3. frame current return paths - you are good there as you have a wire direct from the r/r(-) to the frame
4. engine block current return paths - you are good there as the current will either go from engine block to battery or engine block to frame where you will return via #2 or #3 above respectively

2) the 3 red wire group from the r/r is connected to the stock wires from the r/r output. The yellow and other striped wires remain unchanged from the point of connection.

i assume these are your stator connections and the three wires should becoming directly from your stator and connected directly to your r/r with minimum number of connections. you are good i solder mine at a single joint. I looks like you have removed the headlamp switch loop with the red/w and green/w

3) the battery ground wire to the engine was changed from stock (14 or 16 ga) to a beefier wire (10 ga).

OK

4) the connection from r/r to the battery (red wire) is where i suspect i went wrong. The small connection point on the left side of the bike, just in front of the battery with this group of wires (the arrow pointing it out) is where i made the connection. No modifications were made to this group except for jumpering the two striped wires. I made the connection from the r/r to the battery here after tracing the wire via test probing.

I haven't made a direct connection from the r/r to the battery without going through the stock wires.

if you just connected the r/r(+) output to the red harness wire at the connector then you are using the stock wiring to connect to the battery. The red wire at this point "t"'s off close to this point to go to the ignition switch and through the fuse box to the battery. I prefer to do this ; the only caveat is that the "t" connection (buried in the harness) and the fuse box connections can be corroded in these crimps and cause voltage drops between r/r and battery. I would use naval jelly to acid clean both sets of crimps and flow some solder into the crimps myself. This is effective at making the stock wiring work. If you can't clean yours sufficiently then running a direct wire from red (+) to the battery(+) through a 20 amp fuse will work. If you go the second route the remove the connection to the red wire in the harness.

When you get to the stator pages tests and you are measuring the voltage drops at 5k rpm (full load) from r/r(+) to battery(+) and r/r(-) to battery(-) this is when you will see the benefits of having good connections.

5) all other wiring (especially that in the looms) remains unchanged.

this is OK given you understand the description above

6) for better or worse, i tried to keep all stock wiring for ease of tracing. It is a long term item to rebuild all wiring and going up 1 gauge size, e.g., 18 to 16). (slowly accumulating different colors and connector).

many people rewire their complete harnesses and of course if the harness is in shambles that is probably warranted. However the only "charging" critical connections are the ones outlined above. The one exception is if you have a 6th sense wire and it needs a low resistance path to the battery (+).
at first blush, it looks like i need to do the following:

1) review your diagram.

Yes I believe you will see the 550 Bobber schematic adhering to most of the points I am bringing up here.

http://www.mtsac.edu/~cliff/storage/gs/550_Schematic.pdf

2) disconnect the jumped red and green wires.

You are OK as these don't need to be connected to anything, they are now free and available to run from the headlamp bucket to the back of the bike. I use them as part of a coil relay mod.

3) place a "t" in the red wire from the r/r to the wire connection in the loom, to have one end continue as shown and the other leg go directly to the battery.

see the description above. You are OK as the "t" is in the stock harness.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Riding Again]

Thanks for the input!

I'll be spending my free time the next week or so incorporating these insights and doing my homework.

I'll be posting at the end as a follow up. I hate not finding how things turn out--OTOH, no news is good news.

 

[Riding Again]

Disregard this question--I understand now.


I'm working one side at a time, starting with the grounding.

Posplayr--in your bobber schematic narrative, you talk about taking the connections literally.

Not to be pigheaded but how exact?

Yes, from all your posts, I needed to increase the grounding. This is how I've got it now.

Shall I pull back and run the connection from the R/R direct to the battery and then go back to the frame? Second, I connected into the nearest black with white striped wire indicated. Should I seek the one in the harness instead?

 

[kdo58]

can't get any simpler than this

can't get any simpler than this

http://roadstercycle.com/Roadstercycle.com Videos.htm

 

[Riding Again]

No, it can't get simpler. It makes it easy to understand.

 

[Killer2600]

can't get any simpler than this

Sure it can, do it for me

 

[posplayr]

Disregard this question--I understand now.


I'm working one side at a time, starting with the grounding.

Posplayr--in your bobber schematic narrative, you talk about taking the connections literally.

Not to be pigheaded but how exact?

Yes, from all your posts, I needed to increase the grounding. This is how I've got it now.

Shall I pull back and run the connection from the R/R direct to the battery and then go back to the frame? Second, I connected into the nearest black with white striped wire indicated. Should I seek the one in the harness instead?

What I meant by literal was to read the notes (page two of the pdf and relate them to the schematic) and distinguish between frame ground and the B/W wire in the harness.

Also I don't know why you are NOT using one of the R/R mounting bolts as a single point ground. You don't have to but having long runs or many connections on the ground wires is not desirable. The R/R mounting point is the cleanest because it only needs a short wire to get from Mounting Bolt to the R/R(-) and you collect up all the other grounds to the same bolt.


The #1 ground (in my list before) is normally a Black and White wire (with ring lug) coming from the harness.

If your R/R is mounted on the battery BOX then make sure that the ring lug going to the battery box has a good connection to R/R (-).

If the R/R is connected to the side plate, then there should be an Black and white wire with ring lug going to the side plate. Then make sure that it is connected to the R/R(-).


I don't know why it would be a good ide to pic a B/W from the fuel sensor unless it ties into the same crimp in the harness as the two other B/W with ring lug wires.

 

[850 Combat]

I like to use the existing solenoid mount ground and bond that to the battery and to the frame at the front battery box mount. There are lots and lots of ways to add grounds. I'm pretty certain I don't like yours though.

 

[Riding Again]

Couldn't get my answer to format correctly. Try Try again.

 

[Riding Again]

What I meant by literal was to read the notes (page two of the pdf and relate them to the schematic) and distinguish between frame ground and the B/W wire in the harness. OK, I think that lead to my initial (when I installed the R/R a couple of years ago) misunderstanding. I believe I understand the item now and will review my circuit again.

Also I don't know why you are NOT using one of the R/R mounting bolts as a single point ground. Apparently I wasn't clear enough on my sketch. The R/R ground goes from the R/R output to the fuse box mounting bolt and a ground wire goes from that bolt to the R/R mounting bolt. The fuse box mounting bolt is on the battery box. The R/R also mounts to the bottom of the battery box. [Unless you meant for all other grounding wires to connect to this single point? Sorry for being so dense.] You don't have to but having long runs or many connections on the ground wires is not desirable. I get this now. My initial response was to increase the quantity of grounding. I now plan on cutting this back to what has been indicated in your schematic to the points indicated.The R/R mounting point is the cleanest because it only needs a short wire to get from Mounting Bolt to the R/R(-) and you collect up all the other grounds to the same bolt.


The #1 ground (in my list before) is normally a Black and White wire (with ring lug) coming from the harness. (I think I've seen this, but will need to dig through the wires and mounting points).

If your R/R is mounted on the battery BOX then make sure that the ring lug going to the battery box has a good connection to R/R (-). Installed a new wire for this purpose (see my comment above).

If the R/R is connected to the side plate, then there should be an Black and white wire with ring lug going to the side plate. Then make sure that it is connected to the R/R(-). [Not Applicable, but thank you for covering this possibility.]


I don't know why it would be a good idea to pick a B/W from the fuel sensor unless it ties into the same crimp in the harness as the two other B/W with ring lug wires.I choose this point as it indicated a nearby ground wire which was connected to several other points. I did NOT, however, check to see if it was physically connected to one of the existing ring lugs. My bad and misunderstanding of what I was looking for.

One thing at least I'm learning from this is to be a little more patient with the process.

As indicated earlier by killer2600, My initial diagram was incorrect as the red doesn't go through the solenoid, but rather connects to the battery through the terminal on the solenoid. I'll leave that for a followup topic, but the information provided so far is pretty straightforward on connecting to the stator and how to connect to the battery.

It's the understanding of how to ground properly versus everything on the frame is a ground. I ran into the a problem with some instrumentation and never resolved it to my satisfaction, but cobbled things together to work. Probably developed some incorrect understandings along the way which are now appearing.

 

[duaneage]

The RR might have an internal leak, not common but could be.
Get a Honda RR for 30 bucks off ebay and never worry about it again.

 

[posplayr]

One thing at least I'm learning from this is to be a little more patient with the process.

As indicated earlier by killer2600, My initial diagram was incorrect as the red doesn't go through the solenoid, but rather connects to the battery through the terminal on the solenoid. I'll leave that for a followup topic, but the information provided so far is pretty straightforward on connecting to the stator and how to connect to the battery.

It's the understanding of how to ground properly versus everything on the frame is a ground. I ran into the a problem with some instrumentation and never resolved it to my satisfaction, but cobbled things together to work. Probably developed some incorrect understandings along the way which are now appearing.

The reason for using the R/R mounting bolt is that it some cases the R/R's ground is actually the case of the R/R. That is because on many power devices the device case is ground and is also mounted to a heat sink which is the fined case of the R/R. For example the Compufire Series R/R ground wire is actually just a wire with ring lug screwed into the case of the R/R. So attaching all wires at the R/R case would provide the best possible single point ground if the above conditions are true.

To check your R/R put an ohm meter between the negative (Black lead) and the case and see if you have an open of low impedance. Low impedance means single point at the R/R not some other location.

Another point that is getting lost and Duange is correct, none of this grounding will case a leakage problem. It would have to be a defective R/R. A 6 wire would be a different story.

 

[duaneage]

"The reason for using the R/R mounting bolt is that it some cases the R/R's ground is actually the case of the R/R."

Not true. Most float the case. The frame is ground and if the RR is mounted to it then the case will ground. The RR needs to be on rubber mounts to protect from vibration, a small loop ground wire to the frame is sufficient.

I disagree with running a ground to the RR bolt from everywhere. Use the frame as a ground, make all connections to it and you won't have any problems.

 

[koolaid_kid]

"The reason for using the R/R mounting bolt is that it some cases the R/R's ground is actually the case of the R/R."

Not true. Most float the case. The frame is ground and if the RR is mounted to it then the case will ground. The RR needs to be on rubber mounts to protect from vibration, a small loop ground wire to the frame is sufficient.

I disagree with running a ground to the RR bolt from everywhere. Use the frame as a ground, make all connections to it and you won't have any problems.

If you are convinced that a single ground is paramount, you could also do this: Use a bolt with a nut and lockwasher. Run all your grounds to this bolt using ring connectors. Take one wire and run it to the ground (or 12V -) on the battery. Thus all grounds go to the bolt, the bolt goes to the battery, you are at an equal potential. None of this silly 25 wires to a single mounting bolt of the R/R. O.K., I exaggerate to make a point, but I hope you get it.
Although I cannot agree to the single ground theory, I have read on the web that it is more accurate. And we all know that everything on the web is correct, right? :twistedevil::lol: