Recommendations, boring, ballancing

[platinum2]

how are you degreeing the cams if the sprockets are not adjustable?
you got lots done though, well i believe web cams will hard weld your cams and give them a mean profile ,you might want to call them, i dont think there is to much out there for that bike, orient express maybe or another cam company, port work would really help even if you use the stock cams just a suggestion
why mess with such a odd bike? why not just put that money into a 700/750/or 1100???

 

[Guest]

I'm going to remove the pin and slot the gears slightly. I only need about 3-4 degrees of retard on the cams to bring it back to stock. I think I'm going with the stock cams for now and see what I can get. The 1100 and 750 cams look like they would fit if you cut the outside lobes off. I have to do the math and see if the distances and bearing journal sizes are the same but if that works then there are lots of options.

Port work is something I have to learn. I can clean but I don't know what to take off and where. Its not something I've thought about or researched yet.


This bike has some sentimental value to me and I find the 1100 is too heavy of a bike for me for now. I'm 5'6 155 lbs.

Then there's the problem of finding a bike. Around here the 750's and 1100's are pretty rare. But when I can get one I will know what to do to get the most out of it.

Really this is half of an 1100 so I can imagine doing up one wouldn't be that hard.

I bought this bike as my first and I got my license on it.

This is a first for me and I'm doing this just for the learning experience and to see what can be done with it.
Also, all the parts that are going into this are one of a kind because finding stock parts is hard.

I've learned allot now and I think i could get away with a stock engine and push it just a bit and get more than enough power with it. But since I started this project, it would be a shame to stop now.



From this I've learned how to:

Bore cylinders
remove and install sleeves
machine cases
disassemble and reassemble this engine to spec
plastigage bearings
replace plain bearings
how to read micrometers, calipers, feeler gauges, And I own all of those now.
degree cams for specific power bands or check cam timing
slotting cam sprockets
Shim cylinder block
make shims
make gaskets
valve reliefs in pistons,
compression ratio ( I even made an excel formula from scratch to do the calcs)
combustion chamber size
piston to valve clearances
tolerences


Tonight I opened up the case myself, Shop I took it to sold me the bit and told me how to do it. And turns out the bit is $25 and labor would be $70 for them to do it so I did it myself

The block fits into the case now and I'm going to have to clean it up with something less abrasive. Pics to come.

 

[GregT]

Cam lobe centers - most Suzuki 4V heads love 104/104 lobe centers.
If you stick with the stock cams to get it running just pull out the locating pins and slot the cam sprockets. They don't move if done up properly.
Cams - I'd look seriously at a set of stock GSXR1100 cams - either the early 1052 motor or the later 1127cc - if the journals are the same size, yes by all means cut the ends off.
Ray seems to fit GSXR cams to the 16v 1100 GS's so I'd imagine they would fit the twin too.
I don't think shimming the pressure relief valve is necessary on the twins - I didn't on my 450 which is pretty much the same bottom end, and no probs running it to around 10 grand...

Good progress - carry on...

 

[Guest]

Thanks GregT, I'll go with 104,104.

Here is the progress

Its not too clean but it is my first time.

 

[platinum2]

it will be a neat bike thats for sure your doin good so far

 

[Guest]

Thanks platinum2


How much room should I make between the sleeve and case ?

The original had 7mm all around.

So far i have less than 1 all the way around.

How much will the sleeves expand with heat ?

I know the aluminum should expand more than the sleeves from when I removed and installed the sleeves in the block.


Also what should I do with the cylinder block. I was thinking of just sand blasting it and painting it but I could have it powder coated or ceramic coated.

 

[Guest]

Thanks platinum2


How much room should I make between the sleeve and case ?

The original had 7mm all around.

So far i have less than 1 all the way around.

How much will the sleeves expand with heat ?

I know the aluminum should expand more than the sleeves from when I removed and installed the sleeves in the block.


Also what should I do with the cylinder block. I was thinking of just sand blasting it and painting it but I could have it powder coated or ceramic coated.

Man I'm following this and am completely lost on what needs to be done, but enjoying every minute of it

Given what you're doing, my suggestion would be to keep the cases bare... I had my head and cylinders wet blasted, which is a non-abrasive method of blasting so doesn't affect any journals etc. and the finish is awesome. I didn't need to mask off a single thing.

It sort of seals the alloy so if you get an oil leak, it doesn't stain the engine and you can easily clean it off. Almost all the oil marks from when my Athena valve cover gasket was weeping constantly were real easy wash off with the first bath she got.

This is where I got mine done, I'm sure you could find somewhere there:

http://www.wetblasting.net/

Also, there is another similar technique that uses what are effectively little shards of glass as well, and that is different and will affect journals etc., so make sure it's the same process or you'll need to do lots of masking.

Here's why I reckon this way... before:

After:

Just my 2 cents anyway... possibly the only way I could be helpful on this build... haha

 

[platinum2]

wow less than 1mil? thats thin, i dunno man seems thin to me, the more compression you have the more the cyls will flex as well,i think wiseco sticks with 2 mil minimum not positive though
i had a cyl grab my new piston it was bored out 2 mil left i believe, but the skirt grabbed it when hot ,piston broke at the pin, it was broke in,1 season on it, i dont want to see anything like that happen to ya, mine was off road, but i had lots in it,i couldnt imagine yours,just something to think about
also if you coat the motor it will hold in heat, unless your going alky, but i doubt you want a alky motor to scoot around town all the time
your going all out thats for sure, but again i dont want to steer you wrong so think everything through make sure its something your happy with since its your bike

 

[Guest]

Well here is a to do list pete. Its about time I made one.

finish boring case
reassemble engine with just the crank timing chain and guides
install pistons
mock up the head with the right amount of spacing (washers )
(I'm going to use washers between the head and block to see inside the comp chamber to check for valve clearance)
check valve clearances
check valve timing
slot cam gears
set timing at 104:104
maybe increase valve relief in pistons if necessary
Disassemble engine
Order or make proper size base shim needed
Order oil sump gasket
Order clutch cover gasket
Order 2 emblems


In the mean time, while I'm waiting for gaskets to arrive I could:

Rebuild and inspect head and bearing journal for wear
check valve run-out
clean everything
lap valve seats
check bearing journals with plastigage
check crank bearings for wear and plastigage
check counter balance shaft bearings for the same
check transmission gears and forks for wear
Order bearings if needed


I riped a few gaskets during the dissassembly and called boulevard Suzuki.
Their prices were cheap but with shipping added on its cheaper to get it locally.



I can sand blast and ceramic cote the cylinder block just like I did the first time.

It looks like this:





The case is powder coated and doesn't need anything done to it. It still looks like this:

The base is powder coated and the top end is high heat ceramic coated.

wow less than 1mil? that's thin

lol I mean between the outside of the sleeve and the inside of the case

The sleeves were 77mm stock with 4.5mm of sidewall. I only bored to 78mm because I found the right pistons at the right price.

So far today and yesterday I didn't get much done.


But I did clean up my workspace and moved all the engine parts inside where I can clean and inspect everything and, take my time.


Oh and while at work I made an excel spreadsheet that lets me calculate what the compression ratio will be if I tweak the base shim.

I input things like

bore : 78mm
stroke 56mm
deck height 27mm
base gasket thickness 0.5mm
head gasket thickness 1.2mm
combustion chamber volume 14cc's
Every 1mm of shim adds 4cc''

and it spits out the compression ratio

It says I need 3.5mm of shimming to keep stock compression ratio of 10.5:1.

Its just a rough calculation. Once I have the numbers from measuring the volume of the combustion chamber with the piston all the way up and take into account the valve reliefs than its easy to tweak the formula to say what I really need for a shim.

 

[platinum2]

oh shouldnt matter then it wont get hot down there as it will on top, looks good

 

[Guest]

Great, I was a little worried about it expanding a bit and pushing against the case but I think I have enough meat taken out now that it shouldn't even touch when hot.

What I would really like to know is what the guys building the 11's do for clearance between the case and cylinder.



I started doing some cleaning and inspecting today.

Looks like I'm going to replace all the plain bearings in the bottom end. They show signs of wear and are just slightly out of spec.


I noticed something this time that I didn't when I rebuilt the engine last year.

I used a 450's head gasket and it has 5cc's more volume per cylinder than the 400's head gasket.

That made the compression ratio drop from 10.5:1 to 8.3:1. So the new cometic gasket is 78mm just so I don't have to do any extra calculations

 

[Guest]

Side note.

Doing some research while I'm working.

I've looked into valves and cam shafts for the 400 and 1100

gs40x

intake valve dia 23mm
exhaust valve dia 20mm
valve stem diameter 5.46mm
camshaft journal 22mm
lift and duration ??

gsx1100

intake valve dia 27mm
exhaust valve dia 23mm
valve stem diameter 5.46mm
camshaft journal 22mm
lift and duration, lots of possibilities
I'm not sure about the gear size and distance between lobes or if the tack gear is the same.



for anyone wanting to know more about how your 400 450 or 500 works, take a look at an 1100 manual. There is so much more information that applies.

 

[Guest]

That's a good tip actually.

I had a glance in John's GS1100G manual he had at one time and he had all sorts of things in there like the signal generator output waveform etc. that none of my 450 manuals have including the factory reproduction one.

One thing with your ceramic coating and Platinum2 mentioned it as well... won't the ceramic coating keep the heat in?

I'm thinking this because my exhaust is ceramic coated and the outside is definitely cooler than it was with chrome, and the idea is to keep the heat in to help the gases escape faster... so will that not make the inside of the cylinders and head hotter?

Don't forget I know nothing, this is just a thought that entered my head

 

[Guest]

I'm thinking this because my exhaust is ceramic coated and the outside is definitely cooler than it was with chrome, and the idea is to keep the heat in to help the gases escape faster... so will that not make the inside of the cylinders and head hotter?

Yeah the manuals even go as far as explaining how transistors work


I was suggested by the powder coating company that I should use ceramic coating on the exhaust, cylinder head and barel's because normal powder coating would not withstand the heat.

I agree with you guys that It will retain the heat based on some research I just did with a few ceramic coatings websites.

One shows an exhaust header temperature treated and untreated with 120c in the difference.


So I'm going with a silicone based powder that will withstand the heat and look good while not holding the heat in.



Hey, how hot does this engine get anyways ?

 

[Guest]

Cool, I thought it sounded odd ceramic coating the cylinders and head...

As for how hot these get, good question! I've wondered that myself but have no idea... I know it burns when I touch it

 

[Guest]

Cool,

As for how hot these get, good question! I've wondered that myself but have no idea... I know it burns when I touch it

lol I was thinking of adding a temp sensor for the head and oil just to see what its like.

 

[Guest]

lol I was thinking of adding a temp sensor for the head and oil just to see what its like.

I contemplated that when I started using her every day in traffic, but then realised I had no idea how how it's supposed to get so might end up worrying about nothing... in your case it might be worthwhile though with all the mods.

 

[Guest]

Progress on block

Progress on block

hi, Here is what I've been up to.

No gaskets yet. Piston is 1.7mm above the head.

g

 

[Guest]

Man those pistons are so shiny and new... can't wait to see her come together

 

[Guest]

I did some mockup measurements today

The stock piston is 53.8 mm tall with the wrist pin center 28mm from the bottom of the skirt, the sleeve is 98.5mm deep, at BDC the piston skirt extends past the bottom by 7.26mm

On the new setup the piston is 50.4mm tall with the wrist pin center 23mm from the bottom of the skirt, the sleeve is 101.5mm deep, at BDC the piston skirt extends past the bottom by 2.26mm



How far can I shim the bottom before it becomes a problem ???

I need to make up 4 mm to get the comp ratio I want of 10-11:1.

1.2mm will be the head gasket. So I need 2.8 mm of shim.

That will make the bottom of the piston extend by 5mm instead of 2.2mm



How safe is it for the piston skirt to extend that much below the bore???