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Regulator Rectifier questions

  • Thread starter Thread starter Smokinapankake
  • Start date Start date
Nessism said:
Steve said:
"Easier" - probably.

"Better" - I doubt it. If you have a 6-wire r/r available, it will charge at a lower engine speed and provide better regulation because it reads what is downstream of the ignition key and has a better idea what it is putting out than just monitoring its own output wire.


.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that most R/R?s are five wire these days. I bought a 2004 CBR600 R/R and that was the case. Not trying to be disagreeable, but if the ?sense? wire circuit design was superior, why did Honda go away from it?
Click to expand...

The better charging at lower engine speed part is totally incorrect; the rest of it ... well, its complicated ...

A R/R with a sense wire will have absolutely no advantage at low RPM. At low RPM, the limiting factor will be the output of the stator, not what the regulator does. (in fact, the regulator does nothing at all at low rpm (although the recifier still does its thing ...))

What the sense lead (or leads, there can be one for ground too) CAN do is provide the refrence voltage to the regulator on wires that are not being dragged up or down in voltage depending on the changing electrical load (and the changing I*R voltage drops that occur in the wiring as the loads change)

So the effect of that is that the charging voltage does not change when the loads change (if you turn the lights off, or turn on some power hungry auxilary load for example)

However, there is a catch to this ... the sense lead(s) make the regulator try to hold the voltage "wherever the sense lead is connected" at the setpoint. If you connect the sense lead right to the battery(using a fuse), it will hold the voltage at the battery constant.
This will be good.

If you connect the sense lead into the harness somewhere, it will adjust the R/R output to hold that point in the harness at the setpoint, and the battery voltage will vary depending on the I*R voltage losses in the wiring between that point in the harness and the battery.
This is not as good, and is what we are trying to avoid.

So the closer to the battery you can connect the sense leads, the better.
So, what point in our wiring harness is closest to the battery ... turns out (at least in a 650 GL) that right where the R/R is tied in is really close.
Any place that is switched by the ignition switch is farther, so you get worse regulation using the sense leads than if you sense at the R/R.

So the use of sense leads on our bikes is counterproductive unless we connect them to the battery with leads that don't share any current with the loads.

So we would want to connect directly to the positve battery terminal using a dedicated wire and a fuse ... except a lot of the units using sense leads want them to be switched, because they draw a good bit of parasitic current when the bike is not running, and will run down the battery if constantly connected.

Our bikes do not provide a dedicated switched line to the battery. But you could connect directly to the positve battery terminal using a relay switching a dedicated wire (with a fuse). If you go to that much trouble, then a R/R using sense leads can provide slightly better results than a 5 wire regulator. If you tie into the wiring harness somewhere else, you will get worse regulation than with a 5 wire R/R

Any bike that used a R/R with sense leads from the OEM would be likely to have run a dedicated switched line to near the battery.


So the short answer is:

Unless you go to a LOT of extra trouble, a R/R with sense leads will give you worse results than a R/R without sense leads

BTW, one thing you CAN (and should) do with any of the regulators is to run a heavy (14 guage or bigger) ground wire DIRECTLY from the negative output of the R/R to the battery ground. This essentially does the same thing for the ground that using a sense lead does for the positive.
 
Smokinapankake said:
So I did a bit more sniffing around on my r/r and a few interesting things....
Stator puts out 80V @ 5000 rpm. No continuity through the stator leads to the frame (ground). Something like 5 ohms resistance between leads. Everything here ok.
Set my multimeter to diode check, get infinite resistance one direction, something like 572 - 580 (ish) in the other direction on reg/rec. Seems ok. Follow the factory manual for testing with positive lead on red wire, neg. lead on all others (white/red, white/blue, etc.. in succession) with infinite resistance (open circuit) on all. The manual tells me there should be something like 5 ohms on all wires. And when I reconnect the r/r and run the bike, it's not charging regardkess of RPM. Voltage at the battery terminals remains a constant 12-1/2 ish volts.
Sounds like a faulty reg/rec. What I find interesting is the fact I get a reading when on the diode check setting, but straight ohms resistance test gives infinite resistance in both directions. Something else inside the reg/rec. must be faulty.
Sorry if this makes little sense, I did the test about a week ago and have forgotten exactly what the readings were.
At any rate, I should have a new one off a CBR in the mail shortly....
Click to expand...

The diode tests test only the rectifier section of the R/R.

However, the regulator section rarely (maybe never ???) fails such that the voltage is low.

usually the failure modes are:
regulator section fail = high voltage
rectifier section fail = low voltage (this section is what the diode tests test)
stator fail = low voltage
connection problems = low voltage

Since the recifier section and stator seem to be ok, I would look into connection problems.

Try this:

1) Run a 12 or 14 guage wire directly from the R/R ground wire to the battery ground post. Suzuki's scheme of going through frame grounds is subject to corrosion and poor connections

2) Cut the bullet connectors where the stator wires connect to the harness out, and replace them with insulated spade type crimp connectors. Bullet connectors tend to make poor connections when new, and do a REALLY poor job of maintaining even that connection as they age. NEVER EVER USE THEM !!! What the He11 was Suzuki thinking when they specified them.

I personally think that those two steps should be the first part of any charging system troubleshooting
 
bakalorz said:
If you connect the sense lead into the harness somewhere, it will adjust the R/R output to hold that point in the harness at the setpoint, and the battery voltage will vary depending on the I*R voltage losses in the wiring between that point in the harness and the battery.
Click to expand...

Actually, the opposite is true. Lowering the sense voltage will cause the regulator to overcharge the battery. The regulator has a built in 'setpoint' which does not change. The regulator compares that setpoint with the sense voltage and adjusts its output accordingly. Low sense voltage tells the regulator that the alternator is not charging enough and it will boost its output to make up for that getting the sense voltage back to setpoint. High sense voltage tells the regulator its overcharging and it will trim the alternator's output to get the sense voltage back to setpoint.

An old trick with automotive alternators was to add a voltage divider to its sense lead causing the alternator to put out more voltage.

One thing is for sure- the horrible voltage drops in these bike's wiring harnesses makes life miserable for a charging system.
 
Jaguarjoe said:
bakalorz said:
If you connect the sense lead into the harness somewhere, it will adjust the R/R output to hold that point in the harness at the setpoint, and the battery voltage will vary depending on the I*R voltage losses in the wiring between that point in the harness and the battery.
Click to expand...

Actually, the opposite is true. Lowering the sense voltage will cause the regulator to overcharge the battery. The regulator has a built in 'setpoint' which does not change. The regulator compares that setpoint with the sense voltage and adjusts its output accordingly. Low sense voltage tells the regulator that the alternator is not charging enough and it will boost its output to make up for that getting the sense voltage back to setpoint. High sense voltage tells the regulator its overcharging and it will trim the alternator's output to get the sense voltage back to setpoint.

An old trick with automotive alternators was to add a voltage divider to its sense lead causing the alternator to put out more voltage.

One thing is for sure- the horrible voltage drops in these bike's wiring harnesses makes life miserable for a charging system.
Click to expand...

Well, we're in violent agreement then ... what I wrote and what you wrote do not contradict each other ... although I did kind of gloss over some things, and should rewrite the last sentence ... but I can't come up with a concise way to write it that takes into account all possible connection scenarios.


I'll also agree that the most likely result of connecting a sense lead into the harness further away is overcharging, but there are scenarios which can end up giving undercharging, depending on a bunch of details which I didn't want to get into (my original was already way to long) ... So I left it unspecified ... the one point I did want to make was that if the sense leads don't connect to the battery with their own dedicated wire, they provide worse regulation than without sense leads.
 
bakalorz said:
... the one point I did want to make was that if the sense leads don't connect to the battery with their own dedicated wire, they provide worse regulation than without sense leads.
Click to expand...

Amen to that!

When I put my 6 wire Honda R/R in I quickly realized I would have a hard time finding exact battery voltage through a switched source so I added a power relay to take care of it. Now the battery charges fine, my coils have higher supply voltage and my lights are a tad brighter.
 
Jaguarjoe said:
Amen to that!

When I put my 6 wire Honda R/R in I quickly realized I would have a hard time finding exact battery voltage through a switched source so I added a power relay to take care of it. Now the battery charges fine, my coils have higher supply voltage and my lights are a tad brighter.
Click to expand...

Mr. Jaguarjoe,

"Hmmmm...", he says while he scratches his chin. :?

I plugged my sense wire into the brake light switch. Would you mind drawing up a circuit diagram?

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
R/r

R/r

contact GSR user "duaneage" for possible replacement for $40(included shipping and received within 3 days).
I bought one from him for my GS1100G and it is Honda model and heavier duty and better than an OEM replacement for $90. He sends a kit with all the connectors you would need.
I wouldn't worry that your stator readings are a little less than 80 VAC as long as the 3 readings are close and you have 13.5-14 volts at the battery posts when you've replaced the R/R.
I connected one lead to the rear brake switch for current checking and he included connectors for this too.
Trust me, he will set you up correctly and answer your questions!
 
Whata thread! Couldn't come at a better time for me. I'm in the midst of installing a Honda R/R from Duanage. Like BassCliff, I've connected my sense wire to the brake light switch. I'll be looking forward to the circuit diagram you post.
I've already run a heavy gauge wire from the (-) battery terminal to a location near the fuse block where I've bolted all the ground leads to, including the heavy ground lead from the crankcase. I'll make certain the other end of that lead has good contact with the crankcase. I'm trying to prevent any future charging problems once and for all.
As to the comments made about the inferiority of bullet type connectors....I hadn't considered that issue. I'm tempted to replace the ones from the stator with soldered connections. I can always unsolder them should the need arise.
I'm looking forward to reading more about this.
Willie in TN
 
I don't understand why people are so willing to install a 25 year old R/R on their bike when you can get replacements off Ebay all day long for about $40 that are only a few years old. The newer Honda units are way beefier than the stockers and most are 5 wire units.
 
I could see if you are replacing R/R's with Honda units, but I often get weary of aftermarket parts....Honest John's R/R's just the name makes me cringe.

In the Automotive Businesss it has to be OEM or nothing when it comes to getting the customer down the road. This also includes a carefully elected reman person as well, because to have to do the job twice, it only pays once.

I see that there are many avenues when it comes to replacing parts on these old bikes, as with cars, other than people on here seem to be having better luck with different avenues.

I plan to replace my R/R before the riding season kicks off because lets face it, the thing is 25 years old and I would rather replace it now, than be 3 + hours from home stranded. Being and ASE Advanced level Master Tech, I value replacing aging parts ahead of time to prevent a future break down.

Bottom line is that you can pay now, at least you know what to save for over the winter, or you can pay more later when you need to get your bike rescued.

The old spare, could always help a someone broke down, get home in a pinch.
 
If you have a 6 wire rectifier can you leave the sense wire disconnected to prevent overcharging or is this a no no. I could not get a decent print of the diagram put up by one of our electrical geniuses. is it possible to put a larger and maybe clearer picture up for me please.

How does the power relay work and wire into the system.

Cheers Don
 
Suzuki_Don said:
If you have a 6 wire rectifier can you leave the sense wire disconnected to prevent overcharging or is this a no no. I could not get a decent print of the diagram put up by one of our electrical geniuses. is it possible to put a larger and maybe clearer picture up for me please.

How does the power relay work and wire into the system.

Cheers Don
Click to expand...

The sense lead MUST be connected somewhere in the system. If not, the R/R can't tell what voltage the battery is getting. It would then either never charge, or overcharge (probably overcharge, but it depends on the system)

The relay does not handle much power, so the current rating on it does not matter. It does have to be rated for a coil voltage of 12 volts though.
The relay I describe below has 4 terminals: 2 coil terminals, and a normally open pair of contacts.
Some relays have 5 terminals: 2 coil terminals, common, a normally open contact, and a normally closed contact. For that type, you would ignore (leave disconnected) the normally closed contact, and use the other 4

Get the relay and touch every pair of points with an ohmeter, one pair will have a reading of somewhere between 10 and 10,000 ohms (probably around 200-400). This pair is the coil.

Connect either coil terminal to ground. Connect the other coil terminal to any point in the wiring harness that is switched on by the ignition switch, and is always on when the switch is on.
The other two terminals on the relay will now make contact any time the ignition switch is turned on.

Get an inline fuse and a ring terminal. The fuse handles less than an amp, so any value fuse from 1 to 10 amps is fine. The ring terminal goes directly on the battery positive terminal, and then is connected directly to the fuse. Make sure that all the wiring between the ring terminal and fuse is VERY well insulated, and protected from chafing or cutting. If this wire contacts anything it shouldn't, the bike will catch fire ...
The other end of the fuse goes to one of the remaining connections on the relay. The sense lead goes dircectly to the last connection on the relay.

Don't connect anything else to the line from the battery to the relay, or the relay to the sense lead. The whole point is to have the sense lead have a "pure" connection to the battery.
 
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who couldn't make out the diagram. For all the effort that went into drawing it, a larger copy would allow more of us to benefit. How about it?
Willie in TN
 
How do I make it bigger? I don't know how to do that. If you PM me I can email you a bigger image but AFAIK, the forum limits the size of the attachments you can send.
 
Jaguarjoe said:
How do I make it bigger? I don't know how to do that. If you PM me I can email you a bigger image but AFAIK, the forum limits the size of the attachments you can send.
Click to expand...

Get your big original in a graphics program of some type, and go to "save as". under the options, change the color depth to a smaller # (or black and white)

That should let you keep it physically large, but a small # of bytes
 
Billy Ricks said:
I don't understand why people are so willing to install a 25 year old R/R on their bike when you can get replacements off Ebay all day long for about $40 that are only a few years old. The newer Honda units are way beefier than the stockers and most are 5 wire units.
Click to expand...

As I stated before, I bought one off a 2001 (ish) CBR600 (40 bucks with shipping). If the damn thing would ever show up I might be able to update with results. At any rate, all the deep theory etc.. is lost on me. I just want to replace the unit and be on my way. And I also want to know what to replace it with again should it fail sometime in the future.
It's been a very interesting thread and the diagnostic portion has truly enlightened me. I appreciate all the effort from the members to clarify the position for me, but sometimes too much information can be damaging as well. I've completely pulled out my wiring harness and will go through it thoroughly to ensure complete and total connection satisfaction before reinstalling anything. I really don't want to have to go through all this again, you know. I didn't realize that about bullet connectors. And in my disassembly, I did find one ground wire (black/white stripe) bullet connector totally corroded away. Not good.
So thanks again, I will continue to watch this thread with interest...
 
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