Shim recommendations

[martin_montreal]

The picture shows gap with / & current shims, deciding what to move over and what to try to find. I had to run a wire brush over cylinder #3 exhaust shim to read it so not sure that should ever be re-used correct? I know the spec is .03 - .08 and some guys say they run .1 but I messaged a cousin who is an experienced, old school bike mechanic and he wrote: [FONT=&quot].04" - .06" on the intake and .06" - .08" on the exhaust. But don't go to .10" that's way too loose unless you are running high lift cams and Yoshimura valve springs.[/FONT] which I am not. My .03 spec might be generous - my .038 feeler gauge did not fit the gap. So looking for recommended lashes and what shims I should be looking for for which. Thanks!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VlPD_cDQNrHHcOjIwVZi71K3cRPnIi7g/view?usp=sharing

Timing chain should arrive soon. I was going to order & insert the new shims, loosen what needs to be loosened, open the old chaine, connect the new one and feed it through then close the rivet. Is this all logical? Thanks again!

 

[LAB3]

Trying to get the shims between .04-.06 is going to take generous sized collection of shims to choose from and a lot of measuring to find the EXACT ones you need. They're sold in .05mm increments so it would make sense that when they get down to .03 the next size would get you to .08. I've run .09 without issues and a lot of guys will tell you .10 is just fine. Guess it's a matter of how exact you want to be and how short a time you're willing to wait before making your next swap, .04 won't take long to become .03. Long story short, don't overthink it! I did that the first time.

 

[martin_montreal]

Trying to get the shims between .04-.06 is going to take generous sized collection of shims to choose from and a lot of measuring to find the EXACT ones you need. They're sold in .05mm increments so it would make sense that when they get down to .03 the next size would get you to .08. I've run .09 without issues and a lot of guys will tell you .10 is just fine. Guess it's a matter of how exact you want to be and how short a time you're willing to wait before making your next swap, .04 won't take long to become .03. Long story short, don't overthink it! I did that the first time.

This is the plan. Order 1 or 2 X 2.7 (I wire brushed one of the ones I had to read the number so is it trashed?) and a 1.95 if it exists? The rest can be swapped around:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g1EmyMtTUmmNDExRR_XaCSeng78GlRT3/view?usp=sharing

Make sense? I made the mistake of rotating the cranks, albeit gently, slowly and not completely to get them all out so I was thinking of inserting some 10 Franc coins I have to do the rest of the job.

 

[LAB3]

This is the plan. Order 1 or 2 X 2.7 (I wire brushed one of the ones I had to read the number so is it trashed?) and a 1.95 if it exists? The rest can be swapped around:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g1EmyMtTUmmNDExRR_XaCSeng78GlRT3/view?usp=sharing

Make sense? I made the mistake of rotating the cranks, albeit gently, slowly and not completely to get them all out so I was thinking of inserting some 10 Franc coins I have to do the rest of the job.

As to the wire brushed shim, the number goes facing down toward the bucket. It's up to your best judgement whether or not to use it but in that position it won't be wearing against anything too sensitive (like your cam)

As to rotating your engine or using a rough surfaced item like a coin, that's a pretty bad idea. The best way to tackle the job is to measure the gap, check the shim value and put it back into place. After you have the values written down you can move them one at a time, having an extra shim around just to help as you move them helps a bunch.

The thinnest shim I've seen for sale is 2.10. That's not to say they don't go smaller.

 

[Steve]

PLEASE be careful with your numbers and notations.

And, ... your cousing might be "experienced", but that does not mean he is correct.

The clearance specification for intake AND exhaust is 0.03mm to 0.08mm. Your notations are showing a " mark, which is for INCHES.

Yes, some bikes (like my previous Kawasakis) did run different numbers for intake and exhaust, but Suzuki calls for the same clearance.

Also, it is true the maximum is specified at 0.08mm, many of us will go to 0.10mm. The valves run cooler and last longer between service intervals. Some have questioned extra noise with the extra clearance. There is a modest amount of noise with these engines anyway, it would be impossible to detect any increase due to the extra clearance.

You also mention your ".038 feeler gauge". If you look at it a bit closer, that is actually a 0.0015 INCH feeler gauge that happens to have metric APPROXIMATIONS printed on it. That just makes it easier to get mixed up with your numbers. Getting mixed up is easy enough because the metric limits are 0.03 to 0.08mm, the inch limits are approximately 0.001 to 0.003". Note that both sets of limits have a number 3, but one is maximum, the other is minimum. Unless you are VERY meticulous about making sure which set of numbers you are going to use, you would be better off finding a set of true metric feelers. They should be readily available in your area.

I see you removed ALL of your shims. Did you remove the cams to do that, or did you rotate the crank? If you rotated the crank, I hope you did not damage your cams. Without the shims in the buckets, the edges of the cam lobes will drag on the sharp edges of the buckets and get damaged. If you need to rotate the cam, put a coin in the bucket in place of the shim. A "rough" coin won't matter, it is softer than the cam and will not damage the cam. The coin might be damaged to the point where it will not work in a vending machine, but should still work for general spending.

Wire brushing a shim will not harm it, let alone destroy it. It is hardened far more than any wire brush bristle.
Lastly, I would invite you to take advantage of the offer in my signature.
It is an Excel spreadsheet that will help you determine what shims you need, and also has a summary page so you can keep track of all your service.

.

 

[martin_montreal]

PLEASE be careful with your numbers and notations.

And, ... your cousing might be "experienced", but that does not mean he is correct.

The clearance specification for intake AND exhaust is 0.03mm to 0.08mm. Your notations are showing a " mark, which is for INCHES.

Yes, some bikes (like my previous Kawasakis) did run different numbers for intake and exhaust, but Suzuki calls for the same clearance.

Also, it is true the maximum is specified at 0.08mm, many of us will go to 0.10mm. The valves run cooler and last longer between service intervals. Some have questioned extra noise with the extra clearance. There is a modest amount of noise with these engines anyway, it would be impossible to detect any increase due to the extra clearance.

You also mention your ".038 feeler gauge". If you look at it a bit closer, that is actually a 0.0015 INCH feeler gauge that happens to have metric APPROXIMATIONS printed on it. That just makes it easier to get mixed up with your numbers. Getting mixed up is easy enough because the metric limits are 0.03 to 0.08mm, the inch limits are approximately 0.001 to 0.003". Note that both sets of limits have a number 3, but one is maximum, the other is minimum. Unless you are VERY meticulous about making sure which set of numbers you are going to use, you would be better off finding a set of true metric feelers. They should be readily available in your area.

I see you removed ALL of your shims. Did you remove the cams to do that, or did you rotate the crank? If you rotated the crank, I hope you did not damage your cams. Without the shims in the buckets, the edges of the cam lobes will drag on the sharp edges of the buckets and get damaged. If you need to rotate the cam, put a coin in the bucket in place of the shim. A "rough" coin won't matter, it is softer than the cam and will not damage the cam. The coin might be damaged to the point where it will not work in a vending machine, but should still work for general spending.

Wire brushing a shim will not harm it, let alone destroy it. It is hardened far more than any wire brush bristle.
Lastly, I would invite you to take advantage of the offer in my signature.
It is an Excel spreadsheet that will help you determine what shims you need, and also has a summary page so you can keep track of all your service.

.

wow thanks. I read it all and sent the email. While you were writing that, I was back in the garage.
Results below show that I inserted coins in place of missing shims. I did not SEE any scratches on the cam and inserted coins as soon as possible and was turning the crank as gently and carefully as I could from the beginning but it's probably microscopic... Anyway time will tell. What's done is done. Of the shims that I changed per the (newer) diagram, based on the plan of swapping them around, only one resulted in a valve lash within spec. (yes I have been working towards metric .03-.08 mm) based on my feeler gauges which again I have been working with based on metric numbers. Not sure I can or will get another set. The main problem is that they only go to .038 mm. Thanks for all that. Not sure what to order still but might just opt for what I planned, updated per the image linked below, less another .05mm's and hope that it brings me to within spec. Tempted to go .1 less instead though for the higher lash as implied above. This is more of a PITA than I thought. I am afraid the timing chain change will be worse... lol hopefully not. Anyway one thing at a time.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15mZJOo92EuucA4n325fMT5R5DUvC2-t-/view?usp=sharing

 

[martin_montreal]

As to the wire brushed shim, the number goes facing down toward the bucket. It's up to your best judgement whether or not to use it but in that position it won't be wearing against anything too sensitive (like your cam)
- I put it in. Is there a real difference. I suspected numbers down was correct however for one of them I put numbers up as it looked smoother / cleaner and thought it better but the job is far from finished so I can change that when I go back in / receive some shims.

As to rotating your engine or using a rough surfaced item like a coin, that's a pretty bad idea. The best way to tackle the job is to measure the gap, check the shim value and put it back into place. After you have the values written down you can move them one at a time, having an extra shim around just to help as you move them helps a bunch.
- well there are 4 French Francs in there per the image for now. I will not be rotating much now. Posted above are the results of my efforts. I will avoid coins in the future.

The thinnest shim I've seen for sale is 2.10. That's not to say they don't go smaller.

- thanks. I hope I can find a thinner one for that one thin lash... I am not sure what to do about the ones I installed that gave me to small a lash whether to order .05 less or .1 less. I will need to order shims tomorrow so will have to wing it. Thank you very much for your help. Hopefully the cam is not (too) scratched from my mistake(s).

 

[Steve]

I read it all and sent the email.

As of 07:15 this morning, I have not seen it.

.

 

[martin_montreal]

As of 07:15 this morning, I have not seen it.

.

My Laptop awaits a fan so it probably got stuck in my Sent folder. Email Resent with more info. Thanks again!

 

[martin_montreal]

shim order plan - hopefully this will work - thanks again for all your input -

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BCvAmZFnmh1IVFSYa-nwwsIfvOB_t6Ld/view?usp=sharing

 

[Agemax]

You cannot get a 1.90 shim. The smallest available is 2.10. Any smaller than that and you risk the cam lobe catching the edge of the shim bucket.

 

[Gorminrider]

I see you are swapping shims amongst the buckets and that's a good thing... Just don't get too fixed on getting all the clearances the same and extra wide-you'll be checking the valves again soon enough per the maintenance schedule, so after this first? intimate exercise, it'll be easier. If it's in spec, it's in spec and not to fuss too much....the clearance is so small on these so the main thing is that the valves do actually seat when engine is hot for the time the cams flat spot is on them and thats about it. It's unlikely you'll note any difference inside the largest-smallest allowed gap because the overall difference is so small. BEYOND them is where you might get more noise and I don't think it "saves you" from rechecking them at the correct interval....of course I see the logic-"less than", and you are getting too close to risking a valve staying open inside the maintenance period which is worse so one wants to tend wider...but the frequent checks will catch this.

 

[2BRacing]

Looking at the existing shim thicknesses you have recorded on your workpage, I am very sceptical of the 2.0 size for inlet #3. The size on that shim looks more like 2.6 or 2.8 to me. I suggest that you measure the shim with a micrometer or vernier caliper to confirm the true thickness of that shim.

When the engines were new, all the shims started out at approximately the same thickness roughly in the 2.80 range. Most of yours are 2.75 with a 2.65 and a 2.80, indicating to me that your engine has not done a very high mileage. I therefore find it very strange that there is a 2.0 shim in that engine because that number is actually below the thinnest available OEM shim, which is 2.15 in my set of OEM shims. This is another red flag to me, suggesting that the true thickness of that shim is not 2.0.

I therefore urge you to check the true thickness of that shim before you go ahead. In any case you will not find a shim thinner than 2.15.