Socket Head Capscrews vs Phillips

[mhardig]

yet another stupid newbie question here.

I've done a little searching and found that some folks are using the stainless socket capscrew "kits". I HATE phillips head screws. It's impossible to properly torque them, and if you get a little to carried away with Loctite you're hosed. I would like to take the side cover screws out of my GS450 and replace them with SHCS, I have the correct size piloted countersink, and a drill press with a depth setting. Is it advisable/stupid to replace all the side screws with SHCS? Will there be a same/bigger problem with dielectric corrosion?

I also have a "donor" engine, which seems to be seized, which I will be taking the covers off and polishing, so the parts look nice. As I put these back on I won't want to use the crappy old phillips screws, so I'll be buying new screws anyway, is making the move to SHCS a good bad or indifferent thing?

 

[knotzilla]

The best screws are the robertson head (Square hole for you Americans). It was invented by a Canadian. Henry Ford had the chance to use robertson head screws but since it wasn't a american invention he refused to. That was how the philips screw was born. Ted

 

[Guest]

SHCS work great. Easy to torque and remove. Use some anti-seize on them. I bought a "kit" on e-bay. It was almost complete. The remaining screws I needed I got at a True Value hardware store. They had a great selection of metric. They also now have chrome hex heads (pricey).

 

[JHawkins]

I just ordered 2 sets of Allen head bolts for my bike it was 20 bucks each for the right bolts for the major components. I ordered 2 so I would have spares and for a few places that need them but are not included in the set.

 

[Guest]

I would buy directly from a local fastener supplier if I were you, or from someone like McMaster-Carr. They are cheaper on a piece by piece basis and are the same thing that ebay sellers peddle. Just my 2 cents worth. Ray

 

[argonsagas]

The best screws are the robertson head (Square hole for you Americans). It was invented by a Canadian. Henry Ford had the chance to use robertson head screws but since it wasn't a american invention he refused to. That was how the philips screw was born. Ted

Ted:

I am more than a little inclined to believe that assertion for screws, but the subject here is bolts.


If I really strain my memory, it says that the star/philips head was around before Henry Ford began production, but the balance of your point is likely true.

 

[RotaryRodder]

im slowly changing all my stuff to stainless socket head cap screws.

 

[mhardig]

Wow, you guys rock.

Wow, you guys rock.

Sweet. I was afraid I was going to find a bunch of folks that freaked when you mentioned SHCS, like I was committing some horrible crime. When I belonged to a local Land Rover club, the guys constantly bitched at me for using stainless screws in the body (all aluminum body, so soft iron screws started a hideous cycle of corrosion and repair) because they weren't "original"

 

[mhardig]

Already got 'em

Already got 'em

And I went out to lunch today to get the screws, they had them at Sears, stainless metric, all the right sizes, on CLEARANCE. I bought everything they had, which is enough to do the engine side covers with a little left over, all for about $5.

Now: Anyone have any advice on polishing those covers? the ones on the bike were spray painted with something that has turned yellow and funky. it sands off easily so it's not anodize, I think it may have been some appearance paint crapola. One way or another, it's coming off. I'm gonna take the covers off my 'donor" engine, and buff them up, then replace these. I intend to use straight rouge, but I also have a fine cut compound, and a cut/color compound, that work great on steel, I just dont want to be too agressive on the aluminum. I'll hand sand and wetsand before I begin to polish. ANy thoughts? Oh, here's the bike:

 

[Boondocks]

...I would like to take the side cover screws out of my GS450 and replace them with SHCS, I have the correct size piloted countersink, and a drill press with a depth setting....

The SS socket head cap screws are a worthy improvement, but I would NOT countersink any screw holes in the covers. Just use the socket head screws as is without countersinking, and it'll look and work just fine.

 

[mhardig]

The SS socket head cap screws are a worthy improvement, but I would NOT countersink any screw holes in the covers. Just use the socket head screws as is without countersinking, and it'll look and work just fine.

Good to know, and saves me a bunch of time too. Thanks!

 

[Boondocks]

The best screws are the robertson head (Square hole for you Americans). It was invented by a Canadian.

It is definitely the best screw for Canadians, since it was invented by a Canadian. As for the rest of the world, "best" would depend on the application.:-D

Henry Ford had the chance to use robertson head screws but since it wasn't a american invention he refused to. That was how the philips screw was born. Ted

The Robertson screw was invented in 1908. The Ford Motor Company was one of Robertson's first customers. The Model T Ford used over 700 Robertson screws. The Phillips screw was named for Henry Phillips, who bought the concept from an inventor named J.P. Thompson and developed the screw into a workable form. He founded the Phillips screw company in 1933 but never manufactured the screw. Other screw manufacturers told him the screw was impossible to make, but he finally got American Screw Company's President ( who refused to consider the Phillips head was "impossible" to make) behind the project. After perfecting the process, American Screw licensed it to other manufacturers.

The design purpose of the Phillips screw was to prevent overtightening of the screw. When enough torque was applied, the screwdriver would "cam-out" by design. This had manufacturing advantages over a slotted head screw, as more torque could be applied to the Phillips without the danger of the driver slipping out and marring a finish. It could also be used with automated tools and was self-centering. By 1940 it was used by all automobile manufacturers.

Ironically, the automatic "cam-out" which is useful in manufacturing is the very feature that is disliked by many home mechanics. While more efficient for automated assembly, Phillips screws do not have the ease of positive removal like socket head screws when covers need to be removed for engine servicing.

 

[mhardig]

Boondocks, I'm amazed

Boondocks, I'm amazed

that anyone else remembers that story- or the Cam-Out feature of Phillips screws (which is why I'm going to SHCS) I figured I was the last human on earth to know that stuff.

I have made robertson machine screws to replace the ones on old Fords, and even made special slotted head ones where they couldn't be purchased. Amazing how those things changed over the years, huh?

 

[Boondocks]

that anyone else remembers that story- or the Cam-Out feature of Phillips screws (which is why I'm going to SHCS) I figured I was the last human on earth to know that stuff.

Thanks, but my memory is "Google enhanced" . There are some really good articles on screws at:
History of Screws and Screwdrivers
Screw
Phillips or Pozidriv?

I have made robertson machine screws to replace the ones on old Fords, and even made special slotted head ones where they couldn't be purchased. Amazing how those things changed over the years, huh?

Yes, the changes are interesting, especially considering manufacturing costs. A BOM (bill of materials) for a product must consider more than the material cost of a screw. Assembly reliability and speed have a significant effect on labor cost of a product, which must be kept low to be competitive. Most early manufacturing screw designs have been superceded, but Phillips screws are still in use more than 70 years later.

 

[mhardig]

Don't you wish you had a Google retrieval system for your brain?

Don't you wish you had a Google retrieval system for your brain?

Lord knows I do.

Painting the side covers now. I'm not a painter but they'll be at least all the same color, and not scratched up and icky. Plus, a little wet sanding and buffing hides a lot of ills.

Redoing motorcycles is a LOT more fun than cars. You get to see more stuff happen faster. I've had three project cars, and none of them ever came together with the speed of this bike.

 

[knotzilla]

Sorry about the blurp I started on robertson screws. I saw a program on the inventor of the screw a ways back and I blame it on getting older for a lack of memory for the misinformation. Thanks Ted

 

[tfb]

So are there any budding metalurgists on the forum, who can tell us a bit about the reactivity between stainless steel and aluminium? Is it practically a non-issue, or should we take a bit of caution and smear a bit of thread anti-seize compound on things just to be safe?

Mike.

 

[mhardig]

I don't know about motorcycles-yet

I don't know about motorcycles-yet

but the Land Rover people always used anti-seize and then rubber/plastic washers wherever they could.

Here's a link to a great article on galvanic (dielectric) corrosion of metals, and how it works. Basically, two dissimilar metals form an anode and a cathode, and the anode corrodes. A galvanic chart of metals is available here.

Whichever metal is closer to the anodic end will corrode, and the metal closer to the cathodic end is protected. This is why oceangoing ships often have huge blocks of zinc attached below the waterline, the zinc corrodes and the steel doesn't. I figure I'll use the passivated stainless with a liberal application of (no copper) never seize (I'm told copper (cop-graf) is best for cast iron and steel but never aluminum) and back the screws out every now and then to make sure all is ok. The marine guys, incidentally, use a special Aluminum anti-seize

 

[mixongw]

It is definitely the best screw for Canadians, since it was invented by a Canadian. As for the rest of the world, "best" would depend on the application.:-D



The Robertson screw was invented in 1908. The Ford Motor Company was one of Robertson's first customers. The Model T Ford used over 700 Robertson screws. The Phillips screw was named for Henry Phillips, who bought the concept from an inventor named J.P. Thompson and developed the screw into a workable form. He founded the Phillips screw company in 1933 but never manufactured the screw. Other screw manufacturers told him the screw was impossible to make, but he finally got American Screw Company's President ( who refused to consider the Phillips head was "impossible" to make) behind the project. After perfecting the process, American Screw licensed it to other manufacturers.

The design purpose of the Phillips screw was to prevent overtightening of the screw. When enough torque was applied, the screwdriver would "cam-out" by design. This had manufacturing advantages over a slotted head screw, as more torque could be applied to the Phillips without the danger of the driver slipping out and marring a finish. It could also be used with automated tools and was self-centering. By 1940 it was used by all automobile manufacturers.

Ironically, the automatic "cam-out" which is useful in manufacturing is the very feature that is disliked by many home mechanics. While more efficient for automated assembly, Phillips screws do not have the ease of positive removal like socket head screws when covers need to be removed for engine servicing.

Isn't cut-and-paste a wonderful feature?

 

[Boondocks]

Isn't cut-and-paste a wonderful feature?

I am not sure what this is supposed to mean and what point you are trying to make.

I did not cut-and-paste in my reply to mhardig. I read three articles, reviewed and edited the points I wanted to make, and expressed them in my own words. This is called "research" and "writing".