Starter shorting out main fuse?

[burp reynolds]

I just tested my starter with a circuit tester, and it seems to be causing a dead short. The starter works, but my main fuse blows after about the third crank every time I press the ignition switch.

So, basically, all I want to know is if a healthy starter should be grounding out?

I mean, obviously no, right?

By the way, I already dumped out all of the brush dust.

 

[Guest]

Clean all the connections from the battery to the starter. Also clean the grounds including where the starter body grounds to the crankcase.
If this isn't it you might need a starter rebuild.
Is the relay good?

 

[BassCliff]

Hee Haw Howdy!

Hee Haw Howdy!

Hi Mr. burp reynolds,

Sorry I'm late with the welcome wagon. Here's your mega-welcome! :dancing:

Let it be known that on this day you are cordially and formally welcomed to the GSR Forum as a Junior Member in good standing with all the rights and privileges thereof. Further let it be known that your good standing can be improved with pictures (not you, your bike)![FONT=Arial, sans-serif] [/FONT]

Perhaps you've already seen these, but I like to remind all the new members. In addition to the carb rebuild series, I recommend visiting the In The Garage section via the GSR Homepage and check out the Stator Papers. There's also a lot of great information in the Old Q&A section. I have some documentation on my little BikeCliff website to help get you familiar with doing routine maintenance tasks (note that it is 850G-specific but many tasks are common to all GS bikes). Other "user contributed" informational sites include those of Mr. bwringer, Mr. tfb and Mr. robertbarr. And if your bike uses shims for valve adjustments, send an email to Mr. Steve requesting a copy of his Excel spreadsheet that helps you keep track of clearances, shim sizes and other service work.

These are some edited quotes from one of our dear beloved gurus, Mr. bwringer, with ideas on basic needs (depending on initial condition), parts, and accessories.

***********Quoted from Mr. bwringer************
Every GS850 [and most other models] has (or had) a set of well-known issues that MUST be addressed before you have a solid baseline for further troubleshooting. It's a vintage bike, and it's quite common (as in, every single GS850 I have had contact with) that there are multiple problems that have crept up and slowly gotten worse over the years. It's not like a newer vehicle, where there's generally one problem at a time.

These common issues are:

1. Intake O-rings (install NEW OEM or Viton only - common nitrile O-rings will quickly deteriorate from heat)
2. Intake Boots (install NEW -- these cannot be repaired)
3. Valve clearances (more important than most people think)
4. Carb/airbox boots
5. Airbox sealing
6. Air filter sealing
7. Petcock (install a NEW one)
8. On '79 models, install new points or Dyna electronic ignition (or at least verify that the old points are working correctly)
9. On all models, it's fairly common to have problems with the spark plug caps. These are $3 or $4 each, and often worth replacing if you're keeping the stock coils/wires.
10. Stock exhaust with NO leaks or holes -- good seals at the head and at the junctions underneath.

Carburetor maintenance:

Replace the intake boot o-rings, and possibly the intake boots. Here's the procedure:
http://bwringer.com/gs/intakeorings.html
Here's an overview of what happens with this particular problem:
http://cycleorings.com/intake.html
You'll also want to examine the boots between the carbs and the airbox. There's a good chance these are OK, but check them over.
And finally, if things still aren't exactly right, you'll want to order a set of o-rings for BS carbs from the GS owner's best friend, Robert Barr:
http://cycleorings.com
Once you receive these rare rings of delight, then you'll want to thoroughly clean and rebuild your carburetors. Here are step-by-step instructions that make this simple:
http://thegsresources.com/gs_carbrebuild.htm

OEM Parts/Online Fiches:

I would definitely double and triple the recommendations to use Cycle Recycle II and Z1 Enterprises as much as possible. These guys are priceless resources. Z1 tends to have slightly better prices, CRC2 has a wider range of goodies available. If you're near Indy and can bring in an old part to match, CRC2 has a vast inventory of used parts.
http://denniskirk.com - Put in your bike model and see what they have.
http://oldbikebarn.com - seems to be slowly regaining a decent reputation, but it's still caveat emptor. They don't have anything you can't get elsewhere at a better price anyway.
http://www.babbittsonline.com/ - Decent parts prices. Spendy shipping. Don't give you part numbers at all. Useful cross-reference if you obtain a part number elsewhere. Efficient service.
http://bikebandit.com - Fastest. Middlin' prices. Uses their own parts numbering system to obfuscate price comparisons -- can be very confusing for large orders. Cheapest shipping, so total cost usually isn't too bad.
http://flatoutmotorcycles.com - Slow. Cheapest parts prices, crazy shipping costs. Don't expect progress updates or much communication. Real Suzuki part numbers.
http://alpha-sports.com - Exorbitant parts prices. Different type of fiche interface that's quite useful at times, especially with superceded part numbers. Real parts numbers. Shipping cost and speed unknown due to insane, unholy pricing.

Stainless Bolts, Viton o-rings, metric taps, dies, assorted hard-to-find supplies and materials, etc:

http://mcmaster.com - Fast, cheap shipping, good prices. No order minimum, but many items like bolts come in packs of 25 or 50. Excellent resource.
http://motorcycleseatcovers.com - Great quality, perfect fit (on original seat foam), and available for pretty much every bike ever made. Avoid the textured vinyl -- it's perforated.
http://newenough.com - You DO have riding gear, don't you? Great clearances, always outstanding prices and impeccable service.
***************End Quote**********************

Additional parts/info links:

GSR Forum member Mr. duaneage has great used upgraded Honda regulator/rectifiers for our bikes. Send him a PM.
New electrical parts:
http://stores.ebay.com/RMSTATOR or http://www.rmstator.com/
http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/index.php
http://www.electrosport.com/
For valve cover and breather gaskets, I recommend Real Gaskets (reusable silicon):
http://www.realgaskets.com
Carolina Cycle
http://www.carolinacycle.com
Ron Ayers Motorsports
http://www.ronayers.com
MR Cycles
http://www.mrcycles.com
Moto Grid
http://www.motogrid.com
Salvage/Used
http://www.ricepaddymotorcycles.com
http://www.ozpowersports.com/
If all else fails, try this:
http://www.used-motorcycle-parts.org/
Used bike buying checklists:
http://www.amadirectlink.com/roadride/Riderresc/checklist.asp
http://www.clarity.net/~adam/buying-bike.html
Lots of good info/pictures here:
http://www.suzukicycles.org
http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Motorcycle_Wiki
http://www.bikepics.com
Basic motorcycle maintenance/repair:
http://www.dansmc.com/mc_repaircourse.htm
Online Clymer manuals:
http://search.ebscohost.com/ Click on "Small Engine Repair" then "Motorcycles". User=library, password=library. Note: This link may not work if you are on a school campus.


Thanks for joining us. Keep us informed of your progress. There's lots of good folk with good experience here.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
(The unofficial GSR greeter)

Click here to visit BikeCliff's website.

 

[burp reynolds]

Thanks, Cliff, thanks, Chef.

Thanks, Cliff, thanks, Chef.

Cliff, that's an awesome compilation of GS links. I've been all over your website but never seen many of the rest of your links. Righteous.

Chef, I had the starter off the bike when I found the ground fault. Today I found a line in another post that confirmed that an internal ground in a starter is a bad thing. So I sanded down the coils and reassembled it to find that there was still a groundout, and then I did the only other thing I could think of. I took it apart and shoved it in the dishwasher. I'll leave it out in the baking heat while I'm at work (in the baking heat) before I reassemble it, then I'll stick the bulb on it again.
Oh, and just before I pulled the starter I replaced all of the bullet nose connectors in the middle of the bike with spade type connectors, cutting out all of the melted parts of the wires. Yes, I said melted parts. The whole bundle was fused together like a package of gummy worms that got dropped in the toilet.

 

[Matchless]

Ok, the burnt wires are most likely the cause of your fuse blowing. The starter itself does not draw current via a fuse, but directly from the battery via the solenoid contacts when they operate.

The starter solenoid coil again does draw current from the fused part of the supply.
A randomly blowing fuse is sometimes easier located by "proving" that certain paths on the diagram are OK or faulty by isolating parts and trying to reproduce the fault.
Thus for a starter and solenoid, pull all the fuses, use a jumpwire via a tempory 10 amp or preferably 5 Amp fuse and touch it to the positive terminal of the battery and the starter should swing the engine, if after the 3 turns the fuse still blows I would suspect the solenoid but not the starter motor.
Here I am assuming that the battery terminals, solenoid terminals, solenoid to battery terminal and the negative engine case terminal are clean and tight. Just a finger check for any heat on these terminals after swinging the starter will tell you if the terminal needs cleaning.
You can also prove it properly with a multimeter, but the above is what I call the go or nogo test and can be applied on the roadside as well.

 

[burp reynolds]

>

Ok, the burnt wires are most likely the cause of >your fuse blowing. The starter itself does not draw current via a fuse, but >directly from the battery via the solenoid contacts when they operate.



>A randomly blowing fuse is sometimes easier located by "proving" that >certain paths on the diagram are OK or faulty by isolating parts and trying to >reproduce the fault.

>Thus for a starter and solenoid, pull all the fuses, use a jumpwire via a >tempory 10 amp or preferably 5 Amp fuse and touch it to the positive >terminal of the battery and the starter should swing the engine, if after the 3 >turns the fuse still blows I would suspect the solenoid but not the starter >motor.

Ok, I hadn't noticed that the starter was coming right off the battery. And I replaced all of the burnt wiring.

Allright, I guess I can't get lucky every time. Can I assume that every wire on the bike is supposed to be a hot, and that none of them are grounds?

Is there something I need to know about the solenoid other than whether it's grounding out the circuit? Assuming the answer is no, do you mean that I should put the fuse between the solenoid and the battery, and if so, should I go through the feed from the battery to the starter, or the feed from the ignition switch to the solenoid?

 

[SqDancerLynn1]

Run a fused jumper from the battery to the small wire on the solenoid to operate the starter, If it blows the fuse the solenoid is bad. I had an 80GS850 that would blow fuses.

 

[Guest]

Shameless plug

I have some extra solenoids if you need one.

 

[Matchless]

>

Allright, I guess I can't get lucky every time. Can I assume that every wire on the bike is supposed to be a hot, and that none of them are grounds?

Is there something I need to know about the solenoid other than whether it's grounding out the circuit? Assuming the answer is no, do you mean that I should put the fuse between the solenoid and the battery, and if so, should I go through the feed from the battery to the starter, or the feed from the ignition switch to the solenoid?

Question 1: No, there is a black/white wire running the full length of your harness with thinner pieces "t-off's" dropping out in the centre to the frame and at other connections providing the negative to ground and to the components.

The solenoid is grounded via its frame to the component plate on the side of the battery box and gets its negative from there for the operating coil. Two black/white ground wires drop out of the harness to ensure that a good negative is present on the battery box and the component plate. One should go to the front battery box mounting bolt at the top and the other to one of the component mounting bolts, maybe even the solenoid mounting bolt.
There has been a lot of advice here on adding an extra wire from the bolt that grounds the negative wire from the R/R directly to the battery negative, meaning that this component plate sometimes has a bad earth to those components while using the ground earth on the component plate.
In my experience usually the two black/white wires mentioned previously are not terminated as per the cable routing diagram in the service manual, or the connector or component is corroded. So that direct wire is very important and also corrects any ground problem for the R/R, but will also correct a ground problem for the solenoid. It provides a direct path if something goes bad over time or has already.

The fuse is just temporary so that you can prove if the solenoid is blowing the fuse after a few cranks, while disconnecting the rest of the hot feeds so that they play no role. Just touch it to the battery for a few seconds, the bike will not start, just crank around.

 

[Rzrxif]

I had that problem also

I had that problem also

I had that problem also turned about to be my alternator/stator not my starter on my 550.

 

[burp reynolds]

Tomorrow (I'm a pedicab driver, so it's not tomorrow until I get some sleep)

Tomorrow (I'm a pedicab driver, so it's not tomorrow until I get some sleep)

Question 1: No, there is a black/white wire running the full length of your harness with thinner pieces "t-off's" dropping out in the centre to the frame and at other connections providing the negative to ground and to the components.

The solenoid is grounded via its frame to the component plate on the side of the battery box and gets its negative from there for the operating coil. Two black/white ground wires drop out of the harness to ensure that a good negative is present on the battery box and the component plate. One should go to the front battery box mounting bolt at the top and the other to one of the component mounting bolts, maybe even the solenoid mounting bolt.
There has been a lot of advice here on adding an extra wire from the bolt that grounds the negative wire from the R/R directly to the battery negative, meaning that this component plate sometimes has a bad earth to those components while using the ground earth on the component plate.
In my experience usually the two black/white wires mentioned previously are not terminated as per the cable routing diagram in the service manual, or the connector or component is corroded. So that direct wire is very important and also corrects any ground problem for the R/R, but will also correct a ground problem for the solenoid. It provides a direct path if something goes bad over time or has already.

The fuse is just temporary so that you can prove if the solenoid is blowing the fuse after a few cranks, while disconnecting the rest of the hot feeds so that they play no role. Just touch it to the battery for a few seconds, the bike will not start, just crank around.

I'll plug the starter back in, properly ground the R/R, whatever that is, and bring 'er back alive. If the main fuse doesn't blow, I'll mention that I tightened the generator screws. If it does blow, I'll mention that I can depress the ignition switch all I want without the starter connected and it won't blow the fuse.

By the way, you guys are amazing. I'm still beside myself at how many of you check for new threads on a regular basis. With no hope of material gain.

 

[burp reynolds]

Allright.

Allright.

run a fused jumper from the battery to the small wire on the solenoid to operate the starter, if it blows the fuse the solenoid is bad. I had an 80gs850 that would blow fuses.

thank you.

 

[burp reynolds]

Sure, sure.

Sure, sure.

Shameless plug

I have some extra solenoids if you need one.

What're you thinking for one? By the way, with that stable, my wife and I might show up in Bakersfield batting our eyelashes and asking for rides on your Suzies.

 

[rustybronco]

I'm still beside myself at how many of you check for new threads on a regular basis. With no hope of material gain.

why don't you think there is a material gain? you get your bike fixed, therefore it's a material gain. (broken bike > working bike )
I know what you intended to mean...

 

[Redman]

......... I'm still beside myself at how many of you check for new threads on a regular basis. With no hope of material gain.

Burp,


Then, after a while, of you working on your bike, or at least this portion of your bike, then you will have gained some experience/knowlodge to later help out others that have a similar or related problem.

<<still chuckling at the screen name>>

I was going to say that the starter motor itself is not on any fuse. BUt you already have noticed that the big thick wire from battery positive goes directly to the soleneoid, and then another from solenoid to starter, with no fuse along the way.
Other thing I would say is that the solenoid circuit (starter button ectera) is on the ignition circuit/fuse. So you would think a problem in the solenoid would blow the ignition fuse, not so much that main fuse. Do you have a 10 amp (not 15, not 20) fuse in for the ignition circuit?

So at first one might conclude that the starter motor itself should not directly blow any fuse if the starter were to short to short to ground.
Yet, you say, you can disconnect the starter motor, and then hit the starter button all you want and no problem. ANd you say that with starter motor connected, it will blow the main fuse in 3 trys or so.

<< still chuckling at the screen name >>

Okay, you got me interested. Lets ponder this.
But what would happen if the starter motor itself shorted to ground..... lets see... it would drag the battery voltage down to way low, the charging system would really try to put out a lot to make up for it (thru the main fuse), maybe that is what blows the main fuse, dont know this from experience, just pondering. hummm...
Yah, the starter motor shorting to ground would be shorting out the battery positive to ground AND shorting out the charging sytem to ground (thru the main fuse). Okay... had not thought of it that way before. So, yah, the starter motor shorting to ground would blow the main fuse even though there is no fuse in the starter motor circuit.

As metioned before, one method of troubleshooting a dead short is a process of elimination. And you have done that by disconnecting the starter motor and the symptoms dissapear. So by that; would conclude the starter motor is suspect.
An other method of troubleshooting is substitution. Try it with a different starter that is thought to be good. But you probably dont have one, and dont want to spend the cash for a brand new one. ANother option would be an ebay used one.

Adding a ground wire to the r/r... that is more related to improving the charging ciruit, is not related to your problem of blowing the main fuse and the starter motor.

< < still chuckling at the screen name > >

Oh, have you mentioned what model/year of bike? Maybe someone might send you a schematic.


Oh, one way to respond is to post a picture of your bike (in owners forumn) and introduce yourself. And let some of the wierdos here inspect your bike and guess at what model and year it is, and then argue amounst each other about it, and then argue more about what is stock and not stock, all in good fun of course.

.

 

[gremlin]

rember to lube up your starter motor bearings. check every thing in the starter. windigns bearings. burshes. then work your way back to the battery and slonoid. adding a second ground to the motor and frame is a good ideal.

 

[lucabond]

Just thinking out loud, if you bump started the motor with the starter disconected and the fuse still blew I would think its not the starter. If it didn't blow and everything worked then you would have to think it was the starter getting hot and shorting internaly. Or bypass the starter relay completely take the 2 large wires from the relay touch them together to turn the starter and start the motor,once started seperate the 2 starter wires and see if it still blows as the starter would now be disconected from the bike its something else I would think.

 

[burp reynolds]

Exactly.

Exactly.

Just thinking out loud, if you bump started the motor with the starter disconected and the fuse still blew I would think its not the starter. If it didn't blow and everything worked then you would have to think it was the starter getting hot and shorting internaly. Or bypass the starter relay completely take the 2 large wires from the relay touch them together to turn the starter and start the motor,once started seperate the 2 starter wires and see if it still blows as the starter would now be disconected from the bike its something else I would think.

I bump started it, drove it half a block (tank was off) and checked again, the fuse was fine. I don't remember now if I tried jumpering the starter feed across the solenoid, but there's no point now until I get a starter that doesn't have an internal ground out, is there?

 

[Guest]

What're you thinking for one? By the way, with that stable, my wife and I might show up in Bakersfield batting our eyelashes and asking for rides on your Suzies.

Both of you will have to fight over the one I have.
PM sent

 

[burp reynolds]

Right!

Right!

Burp,

Okay, you got me interested. Lets ponder this.
But what would happen if the starter motor itself shorted to ground..... lets see... it would drag the battery voltage down to way low, the charging system would really try to put out a lot to make up for it (thru the main fuse), maybe that is what blows the main fuse, dont know this from experience, just pondering. hummm...
Yah, the starter motor shorting to ground would be shorting out the battery positive to ground AND shorting out the charging sytem to ground (thru the main fuse). Okay... had not thought of it that way before. So, yah, the starter motor shorting to ground would blow the main fuse even though there is no fuse in the starter motor circuit.


Adding a ground wire to the r/r... that is more related to improving the charging ciruit, is not related to your problem of blowing the main fuse and the starter motor.

.

That's brilliant! Or completely mad! Or both!

I was wondering how the solenoid could be bad when it's not blowing the ignition fuse.

I guess that means I could change the fuse, put the bad starter back in, bump start it, drive around the block, check the fuse, find out it's good, bump it again, and then on my way around the block, hit the starter and blow the fuse. And look completely bat**** insane, because that wouldn't really confirm your theory. It would take my mind off this problem while I'm waiting for my new starter to arrive though.

Thanks!

Oh, I've been waiting to settle on a paint job I like before I shoot too many pictures. The flame job that was on it was ludicrous. I think the PO thought is was an L.

PS, wot's a R/R?