X
xifer
Guest
Someone said to me that running in hot oil damages the stator
whereas I thought the oil cooled it!
Is that true?
whereas I thought the oil cooled it!
Is that true?
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X
xifer
Guest
tx for the confimation - I'm having this dumb conversation
and we've gotton onto what is an alternator, what is a dynamo
what is an AC generator, why do the stators fail etc etc...
I've realised my terminoligy is shot
DC generator - I have no name for this
AC generator - I have no name for this
AC gen with moving field - ALTERNATOR
but he insists any AC gen is an alternator...
( A Brit thing but I don't think it right techically)
dyanamo - any generator! But in Britain
folk use this TERM for DC generator
This conversation is going nowhere fast...
us brits havea screwed language. And too
much time - I should be working!
and we've gotton onto what is an alternator, what is a dynamo
what is an AC generator, why do the stators fail etc etc...
I've realised my terminoligy is shot
DC generator - I have no name for this
AC generator - I have no name for this
AC gen with moving field - ALTERNATOR
but he insists any AC gen is an alternator...
( A Brit thing but I don't think it right techically)
dyanamo - any generator! But in Britain
folk use this TERM for DC generator
This conversation is going nowhere fast...
us brits havea screwed language. And too
much time - I should be working!
M
mixongw
Guest
X
xifer
Guest
mixongw said:
I can't see it Firefox crashes on that site - so does IE !
Appears I have a java problem. Are you using
Java\jre1.5.0_05
or something else?
M
mixongw
Guest
xifer said:
Java(TM) Plug-in: Version 1.3.1_03
Using JRE version 1.3.1_03 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM
B
bgmart450
Guest
Neat site 
Worked for me ok with Version 1.5.0 (build 1.5.0_04-b05) Java 2
and
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 Firefox/1.0.7
Worked for me ok with Version 1.5.0 (build 1.5.0_04-b05) Java 2
and
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 Firefox/1.0.7
I'm not an electrical geek and make no claim to being one.
I dont believe there is any such thing as a DC generator or alternator.
My understanding is DC current cannot be generated. DC can only be rectified from AC.
I'm not sure where the arguement is in saying any AC producing device is an alternator. AC cant be produced without having an alternating field, so....? Auto alternators and GS stators produce current in the same way.
The difference is in how they regulate/manage it. Cars vary the output by
manipulating the field so output can remain constant although rpm changes. The GS method does not do this. Output varies directly with rpm. Consequently, extended running with lights on will deplete the battery because consumption is greater than output. High rpm produces more than is needed, so excess is shunted to ground. The big drawback (as I see it) to the GS method is it gives a very narrow operating range relative to electrical load. Not enough juice, you end up with a dead battery. Too much output, the additional shunting to ground produces more heat than the R/R can eliminate and it burns up, usually shorting the stator at the end of the process. I dont believe there is anything wrong with the stator design. Too much output will also boil the battery dry and can reduce its life to nothing.
My opinion is the secret to long life with the GS charging system is to measure amperage and voltage at various rpm so you can modify the load to use almost all of the electricity produced. A little testing/ measuring with a meter and additional lights, etc. can solve this problem and allow you to balance the system more closely. Minimal shunting to ground, means minimal excess heat for the R/R. I believe an overheated R/R is the primary cause of charging system failure.
Earl
I dont believe there is any such thing as a DC generator or alternator.
My understanding is DC current cannot be generated. DC can only be rectified from AC.
I'm not sure where the arguement is in saying any AC producing device is an alternator. AC cant be produced without having an alternating field, so....? Auto alternators and GS stators produce current in the same way.
The difference is in how they regulate/manage it. Cars vary the output by
manipulating the field so output can remain constant although rpm changes. The GS method does not do this. Output varies directly with rpm. Consequently, extended running with lights on will deplete the battery because consumption is greater than output. High rpm produces more than is needed, so excess is shunted to ground. The big drawback (as I see it) to the GS method is it gives a very narrow operating range relative to electrical load. Not enough juice, you end up with a dead battery. Too much output, the additional shunting to ground produces more heat than the R/R can eliminate and it burns up, usually shorting the stator at the end of the process. I dont believe there is anything wrong with the stator design. Too much output will also boil the battery dry and can reduce its life to nothing.
My opinion is the secret to long life with the GS charging system is to measure amperage and voltage at various rpm so you can modify the load to use almost all of the electricity produced. A little testing/ measuring with a meter and additional lights, etc. can solve this problem and allow you to balance the system more closely. Minimal shunting to ground, means minimal excess heat for the R/R. I believe an overheated R/R is the primary cause of charging system failure.
Earl
xifer said:
J
joeadams
Guest
DC power can be generated via chemical reaction.
G
Guy
Guest
earlfor said:
No.
A dynamo does indeed generate DC current.
An alternator produces alternating current.
In a dynamo, succesive coils are wound in alternate directions, so that the generated current always flows in the same direction.
F
focus frenzy
Guest
dynamo
The dynamo was the first electrical generator capable of delivering power for industry, and is still the most important generator in use in the 21st century. The dynamo uses electromagnetic principles to convert mechanical rotation into an alternating electric current.
The first dynamo based on Faraday's principles was built in 1832 by Hippolyte Pixii, a French instrument maker. It used a permanent magnet which was rotated by a crank. The spinning magnet was positioned so that its north and south poles passed by a piece of iron wrapped with wire. Pixii found that the spinning magnet produced a pulse of current in the wire each time a pole passed the coil. Furthermore, the north and south poles of the magnet induced currents in opposite directions. By adding a commutator, Pixii was able to convert the alternating current to direct current.
alternator
Alternators generate electricity by the same principle as DC generators. When magnetic field lines cut across a conductor, a current is induced in the conductor. In general, an alternator has a stationary part (stator) and a rotating part (rotor). The stator contains windings of conductors and the rotor contains a moving magnetic field. The field cuts across the conductors, generating an electrical current, as the mechanical input causes the rotor to turn.
The rotor magnetic field may be produced by induction (in a "brushless" generator), by permanent magnets (usually in very small machines), or by a rotor winding energized with direct current through slip rings and brushes. Automotive alternators invariably use brushes and slip rings, which allows control of the alternator generated voltage by varying the current in the rotor field winding. Permanent magnet machines avoid the loss due to magnetizing current in the rotor but are restricted in size owing to the cost of the magnet material. Since the permanent magnet field is constant, the terminal voltage varies directly with the speed of the generator. Brushless AC generators are usually larger machines than those used in automotive applications.
up till the early 1960's automobiles used dc generators.
with the invention of reliable solid state rectifiers in the early 60's manufacturers switched over to using alternators as alternators are much more efficient and lighter than dc generators.
GS motorcycles use a ac generator witch can be called a alternator due to it generating a alternating current.
I prefer to call it a ac generator due to it having the same drawback as a dc generator, it has a heavy permanent magnetic rotor and its out put is directly affected by rotation speed.
automotive alternators output is also affected by speed but it has the ability to change the magnetic strength of the rotor and can turn it up at low speeds and back it down as the rotor speed increases.
the ac generator in our (and many other) bikes regulate output by shunting excess power to ground, a inefficient but simple system.
alternators control output by varying the rotors magnetic field.
during low load on the electrical system the alternator requires little power to spin it.
the stators in out bikes are always putting out 100% this is why they are oil cooled.
you run a GS with the oil level low for long and it will burn out the stator.
a item of interest is that the GT750 water buffalo (kettle in Great Brittan) uses a actual automotive style alternator!
the original oil cooled GSXR on up to the current katana use a alternator but the current gsxr 1000 and the Busa uses a ac generator just like our bikes.
The dynamo was the first electrical generator capable of delivering power for industry, and is still the most important generator in use in the 21st century. The dynamo uses electromagnetic principles to convert mechanical rotation into an alternating electric current.
The first dynamo based on Faraday's principles was built in 1832 by Hippolyte Pixii, a French instrument maker. It used a permanent magnet which was rotated by a crank. The spinning magnet was positioned so that its north and south poles passed by a piece of iron wrapped with wire. Pixii found that the spinning magnet produced a pulse of current in the wire each time a pole passed the coil. Furthermore, the north and south poles of the magnet induced currents in opposite directions. By adding a commutator, Pixii was able to convert the alternating current to direct current.
alternator
Alternators generate electricity by the same principle as DC generators. When magnetic field lines cut across a conductor, a current is induced in the conductor. In general, an alternator has a stationary part (stator) and a rotating part (rotor). The stator contains windings of conductors and the rotor contains a moving magnetic field. The field cuts across the conductors, generating an electrical current, as the mechanical input causes the rotor to turn.
The rotor magnetic field may be produced by induction (in a "brushless" generator), by permanent magnets (usually in very small machines), or by a rotor winding energized with direct current through slip rings and brushes. Automotive alternators invariably use brushes and slip rings, which allows control of the alternator generated voltage by varying the current in the rotor field winding. Permanent magnet machines avoid the loss due to magnetizing current in the rotor but are restricted in size owing to the cost of the magnet material. Since the permanent magnet field is constant, the terminal voltage varies directly with the speed of the generator. Brushless AC generators are usually larger machines than those used in automotive applications.
up till the early 1960's automobiles used dc generators.
with the invention of reliable solid state rectifiers in the early 60's manufacturers switched over to using alternators as alternators are much more efficient and lighter than dc generators.
GS motorcycles use a ac generator witch can be called a alternator due to it generating a alternating current.
I prefer to call it a ac generator due to it having the same drawback as a dc generator, it has a heavy permanent magnetic rotor and its out put is directly affected by rotation speed.
automotive alternators output is also affected by speed but it has the ability to change the magnetic strength of the rotor and can turn it up at low speeds and back it down as the rotor speed increases.
the ac generator in our (and many other) bikes regulate output by shunting excess power to ground, a inefficient but simple system.
alternators control output by varying the rotors magnetic field.
during low load on the electrical system the alternator requires little power to spin it.
the stators in out bikes are always putting out 100% this is why they are oil cooled.
you run a GS with the oil level low for long and it will burn out the stator.
a item of interest is that the GT750 water buffalo (kettle in Great Brittan) uses a actual automotive style alternator!
the original oil cooled GSXR on up to the current katana use a alternator but the current gsxr 1000 and the Busa uses a ac generator just like our bikes.
B
Boondocks
Guest
Keith,
The advice you have received so far about creating a link will only copy and paste the internet address. This is technically not a link, as clicking on the text address will have no result. The only way to use this "link" is to recopy it and manually paste it in the address box of your browser.
The easiest way to make a true link to another thread/internet address is to use the provided procedure when you post a reply:
1. Open the Post a Reply page.
2. Under the Message body section there are little boxes that give help to provide different functions. The far right box has an underlined URL help box. This is the one you want. URL = Uniform Resource Locator.
3. Place the mouse over the URL box and it will show you the format for creating a link. Left clicking the mouse will start the process by dropping the prefix into the message body. 4. ...x again, and this will close the link with a . Or, you can type the beginning and the closing manually.
6. That's all there is to it. The "or" option in the URL help box is the format for inserting a text description of the link. This is the type of link commonly seen, where a description of the link is shown, but not the actual URL. After you get used to the first method, the second will come easily. :wink:
The advice you have received so far about creating a link will only copy and paste the internet address. This is technically not a link, as clicking on the text address will have no result. The only way to use this "link" is to recopy it and manually paste it in the address box of your browser.
The easiest way to make a true link to another thread/internet address is to use the provided procedure when you post a reply:
1. Open the Post a Reply page.
2. Under the Message body section there are little boxes that give help to provide different functions. The far right box has an underlined URL help box. This is the one you want. URL = Uniform Resource Locator.
3. Place the mouse over the URL box and it will show you the format for creating a link. Left clicking the mouse will start the process by dropping the prefix into the message body. 4. ...x again, and this will close the link with a . Or, you can type the beginning and the closing manually.
6. That's all there is to it. The "or" option in the URL help box is the format for inserting a text description of the link. This is the type of link commonly seen, where a description of the link is shown, but not the actual URL. After you get used to the first method, the second will come easily. :wink:
H
Hoomgar
Guest
earlfor said:Well yeah, ya got me there.
Arrrrr ya got me. LOL
Earl
joeadams said:
You already have one on your bike Earl. It's called a battery :wink:
Interesting Leon. Makes me wonder why then we use an AC system if we could generate DC which wouldnt require a rectifier.
Also, the last line of the paragraph seems to substantiate my first statement. "By adding a commutator, Pixii was able to convert the alternating current to direct current" Technically, DC current is not being generated. AC current is being generated and modified resulting in DC current. It seems that by that definition, we could say the GS charging system produces DC current since DC is the end result.
Earl
Also, the last line of the paragraph seems to substantiate my first statement. "By adding a commutator, Pixii was able to convert the alternating current to direct current" Technically, DC current is not being generated. AC current is being generated and modified resulting in DC current. It seems that by that definition, we could say the GS charging system produces DC current since DC is the end result.
Earl
focus frenzy said:
J
joeadams
Guest
earlfor said:Well yeah, ya got me there.
Arrrrr ya got me. LOL
Earl
joeadams said:
Just bustin your chops a little. Its not often that I would be in a position to correct Earl.
G
GARYEIN1
Guest
STATOR OIL COOL
STATOR OIL COOL
? FOR EARLFOR
IF YOU RELOCATE THE R/R TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE BIKE WERE
IT GETS MORE DIRECT AIR GOING ACROSS IT WILL THAT HELP COOL IT DOWN AND LAST LONGER
GARY
STATOR OIL COOL
? FOR EARLFOR
IF YOU RELOCATE THE R/R TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE BIKE WERE
IT GETS MORE DIRECT AIR GOING ACROSS IT WILL THAT HELP COOL IT DOWN AND LAST LONGER
GARY
F
focus frenzy
Guest
Re: STATOR OIL COOL
Re: STATOR OIL COOL
thats where Harley puts them!
it would help.
Re: STATOR OIL COOL
GARYEIN1 said:
thats where Harley puts them!
it would help.
F
focus frenzy
Guest
earlfor said:
in a generator the magnets are fixed and the windings (stator) spin the commutator is the contact rings that brushes ride on, brushes don't take well to being imersed in oil, they also wear, and generators don't work well being spun at 9K RPM.
the AC generator used has no brushes making it simple and cheep to manufacture.
that is why so many bikes still use ac generators with a separate rectifier mounted elseware.
X
xifer
Guest
Ah hell, talk about information overload! :?
Let me try to get a handle on this by summing up.
DC Generator - called a Dynamo by some although
some use the term dynamo to mean any generator.
Also used by some to refer to an AC generator with
commutator.
AC Generator - an AC Generator or a dynamo or an alternator
Alternator - used by some to refer to any AC generator
and by others to refer only to AC generators with moving
field coils.
Is that about right!?
So, if folk are using the words differently they will never
see eye to eye. Esp if one of the people won't admit
some use terms differently...
Now, I'm off to see if I can fix my Java install (complicated
because I'm testing some Java apps on this PC).
(Herself wanted me to wear a badge to work today saying
''yes it is cold, isn't it''.)
Let me try to get a handle on this by summing up.
DC Generator - called a Dynamo by some although
some use the term dynamo to mean any generator.
Also used by some to refer to an AC generator with
commutator.
AC Generator - an AC Generator or a dynamo or an alternator
Alternator - used by some to refer to any AC generator
and by others to refer only to AC generators with moving
field coils.
Is that about right!?
So, if folk are using the words differently they will never
see eye to eye. Esp if one of the people won't admit
some use terms differently...
Now, I'm off to see if I can fix my Java install (complicated
because I'm testing some Java apps on this PC).
(Herself wanted me to wear a badge to work today saying
''yes it is cold, isn't it''.)